From Courtroom to Calm: A Mindful Journey with Bob Martin

Merry Elkins:

This is the EWN Podcast Network.

Cathy Worthington:

Welcome to late boomers, our podcast guide to creating your 3rd act with style, power, and impact. Hi. I'm Cathy Worthington.

Merry Elkins:

And I'm Merry Elkins. Join us as we bring you conversations with successful entrepreneurs, entertainers, and people with vision who are making a difference in the world.

Cathy Worthington:

Everyone has a story, and we'll take you along for the ride on each interview, recounting the journey our guests have taken to get where they are, inspiring you to create your own path to success. Let's get started.

Cathy Worthington:

Hello. I'm Cathy Worthington. Welcome to the late boomers podcast. Today, we have as our guest, Bob Martin, a former criminal lawyer who today is a professor of wellness and the mindfulness coordinator at Elon University.

Merry Elkins:

And I'm Merry Elkins. Bob blends Taoist teachings with brain science and psychology to help people break 3 free from limiting beliefs. He's a great example of a boomer who is pursuing goals in his 3rd chapter. Welcome, Bob.

Bob Martin:

Nice introduction. Thank you. Happy to be here.

Cathy Worthington:

Thank you. Your journey includes studying under, and I hope I say this right, master Hua Ching Mi, a 72nd generation Taoist master, and how has this experience shaped your understanding of spirituality and mindfulness, and how do you incorporate these teachings into your daily life?

Bob Martin:

Oh, oh, oh, big question. Okay.

Merry Elkins:

It is.

Cathy Worthington:

Uh-huh.

Bob Martin:

Well, let me take that a piece at a time. The first part was what? The first part was

Cathy Worthington:

You were studying under under this great master.

Bob Martin:

Right.

Cathy Worthington:

And so how did this shape your understanding of spirituality and mindfulness?

Bob Martin:

Yeah. So, I guess a little context would be helpful. My folks were, immigrants. My dad was just to give you a time frame, my dad was born in 18/98.

Merry Elkins:

Wow.

Bob Martin:

And, he escaped from the Bolshevik invasion of Hungary. He was Hungarian royalty, and, of course, all the royals got wiped out by the Bolsheviks. Wow. My mom wound up, who he wound up with was Roma Gypsy. You know, everybody wiped out the Romans.

Bob Martin:

So, they came to kind of a conclusion that you really couldn't be a very merciful god that would allow all that to happen. I wouldn't say that we were atheists. I would say coined a term, I would say, nontheist. It was just a conversation that we didn't have in in in the house. So fast forward, I I grow up.

Bob Martin:

Much to my, shopkeeper father's dismay, I become a lawyer. Nice. And if you later on, I have to tell you the story about when we opened the sub shop, and I I went to see him about it. But, and I, I became a lawyer. I became a DA.

Bob Martin:

I worked under Janet Reno. Oh, mhmm. In the Miami District Attorney's Office during the Scarface, Miami Vice days, Miami Wow. With the cocaine cowboys and the Mariel boat lift and all that. And, we hit the mob up for a lot of money.

Bob Martin:

And I went out and practiced, and the mob came to me. And they said that I had to be pretty good to do that, so they started sending me clients. And so all of a sudden, I was whisked into this chrome and glass, you know, party Miami Miami Vice life and, probably doing a bunch stuff I shouldn't have been doing, and my personal life was kind of fraying at the edges. So I was seeing a therapist, and, one day, I I I had a real decision to make about whether I was gonna keep forging forward in spite of all of the signals that told me I couldn't do what I was doing and just keep punching through and, or, not. And, he picked up a little bag and with coins in it and started throwing the coins and making calculations.

Bob Martin:

And and I'm thinking I'm paying this guy $65 an hour, to be my therapist. And he's some kind of charlatan throwing coins and but, finally, he came up with a number, and he opened up this big book to the chapter number, and he shows it to me. And the title of the chapter is retreat. Retreat? Retreat.

Bob Martin:

Uh-huh. And, I curse him out, you know, because of the way he got there. And I leave, and I keep thinking of the word retreat retreat. So I made this decision to kinda pull back from some of the crazy that I was doing, and I went to see him with my tail between my legs. You know what's cool about this podcast is that I can use I can use all these boomer terms, and you know what I'm talking about.

Merry Elkins:

We do. Yeah. Yes.

Cathy Worthington:

For sure. For sure. Yeah. So I

Bob Martin:

went back to him with my tail between my legs, and I I said, what was that? And he said, well, that was the I Ching. And I go, well, what's that? And he goes, it's a Daoist practice. And I go, what's Daoism?

Bob Martin:

And so turns out that my therapist was the English language trans not translator, the English language editor

Merry Elkins:

Mhmm.

Bob Martin:

For master watching me. And he was the 72nd. I mean, just think about that. I figured that out. It's about 1400 years Mhmm.

Bob Martin:

Of passing a discipline down from father to son to father to son for 1400 years. Mhmm. So he's a Dallas master, you know, Tai Chi, Kung Fu, Qigong, and, the and all of these other practices. And so he starts explaining to me, and, this made sense. It it all made sense.

Bob Martin:

They weren't asking me to believe in angels or seraphs or or seraphim or or mystical creatures. They just said, here's a manual, a handbook for how to live life.

Merry Elkins:

Mhmm.

Bob Martin:

And considering where I was in my life at that point, and I was kinda grasping, and I just Mhmm. Grabbed on to it. And I studied under master Ni for 8 years, through through George, and Master Nee came to Miami. And what an amazing amazing human being this was. I mean, it's one of those people where you just feel their energy when you meet them.

Bob Martin:

You know? It's just they they they're stunning. That I guess that would be the word, stunning.

Merry Elkins:

Was was there one teaching that you grasped onto first before you went into it further?

Bob Martin:

I was given the idea that life could be effortless and still be effective and efficient. I don't know if it was in quite those words, but that was the sum of it. Mhmm. And I needed I was putting out a lot of effort, and I wasn't making much progress. Yeah.

Bob Martin:

So that seemed pretty attractive to me. And, of course, you know, the the main book of Daoism is something called the Dao De Jing. Mhmm. And Dao means classical book, and Dao means the way, and Te means virtue. Yeah.

Bob Martin:

So the Dao De Jing is the classical book of the way of virtue. And it's 81 single page chapters. That's a manual for living. It teaches you about leadership. It teaches you about how to navigate the river of life.

Merry Elkins:

Eighty one single pages is very good for young people too who are very tuned into Instagram and TikTok. But but I'm I have a question for you because I am still amazed that you transitioned from your successful legal career to mindfulness advocacy. So Mhmm. You kind of touched on what made you make that transition, but talk about your how it changed your perspective on justice and well-being.

Bob Martin:

Yeah. So, you know, by this time, you know, I was a defense attorney, and, you know, a lot of people, you know, have over the years, a lot of people have asked me the question, how could you represent a rapist or a child abuser or Mhmm. You know, these horrible, horrible people? How can you represent them and and and go to battle for them? And any any defense attorney that has, you know, a a smidgen of a heart understands that we're not really doing it for the dirtbag.

Bob Martin:

We're doing it because the police and the prosecutors, they enforce the law, but defense attorneys enforce the constitution.

Cathy Worthington:

Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah.

Bob Martin:

We are the ones that hold the police and the and the and the prosecutors accountable for doing it by the book and not violating our liberties. Mhmm. We're the only group of people that stand between the police power of the state and the individual. Mhmm. Interesting.

Cathy Worthington:

And everybody's required to have an advocate. Right. And

Bob Martin:

You think of, how legal systems work in dictatorships. The prosecutor owns the defense bar, and it's a sham trial, and they put away their political we're the people that stop that from happening. Mhmm.

Cathy Worthington:

Right.

Bob Martin:

And we take that role real seriously. So there's already a kind of a basis, a foundation for doing things for a good reason even if we are representing pretty questionable people. Mhmm. So

Merry Elkins:

a lot of people are accused of of crimes they didn't commit to. So

Bob Martin:

Mhmm. Mhmm. They are

Merry Elkins:

They need you.

Bob Martin:

And the, the saddest part you know, I I'm kinda going off on a tangent, but the saddest part of it all is that it's not so much that an innocent person's gonna get convicted. That doesn't happen. It happens. And it's terrible when it happens, but it doesn't happen that often. 95% of the cases are plea bargains.

Bob Martin:

People plead guilty and, you know, and the case just goes through the system kind of, like, without, you know, any question or any remarkable things. The ones that are sad, though, are the ones where somebody comes to you and they say, I really didn't do this. I really didn't steal that thing. And the evidence against them looks pretty good. Let's say somebody went into Walmart, and they picked something up that they were gonna buy, and then they, put it down somewhere in the store deciding not to buy it.

Bob Martin:

And the camera picks them up, picking it up and holding it, like, under holding it close, And then they walk out of the store and get in their car, and then they're arrested. And you got this video proof that they picked it up and didn't pay for it. So it looks real bad. So but they say, mister Martin, I didn't do it. I didn't do it.

Bob Martin:

So now I gotta go to them and say, well, okay. We can go to trial, and there's probably a 75 percent chance we're gonna win. But if you lose, you're gonna go to jail for 2 years. On the other hand, you could take this plea to a misdemeanor and do 5 months of probation Mhmm. And you have to plead guilty.

Bob Martin:

Mhmm. Mhmm.

Cathy Worthington:

So it's really tough on them.

Bob Martin:

Do you wanna take a 25% chance that you're gonna do 2 years in prison?

Cathy Worthington:

So in many ways, you were already a mindfulness advocate at that time. I mean, you were, because you were advocating for people in a very mindful way and you've been a lawyer and a social worker and you've had unique insights into the human condition because of that. So how do you integrate principles of resilience and positive psychology into your teaching and counseling?

Bob Martin:

Yeah. So when you practice Daoism, and then when I came to North Carolina, that's a whole story why I got here, But when I came to North Carolina, there aren't many Taoists here, so I started going to Buddhist temples and Buddhist teachings. And one of the things that you do in Buddhism is, you practice the cultivation of kindness, loving kindness, generosity, compassion, wisdom, and you actually intentionally do practices that are designed to open your heart. Mhmm. And I will share with you that there is a very particular sensation that you feel when your heart opens.

Cathy Worthington:

Okay.

Merry Elkins:

Like, describe it.

Bob Martin:

Well, for for everybody, it's kinda different. But for me, I it feels like I've grown another arm that's extending from my chest, reaching out to touch everything. Touch people, touch animals, touch nature, touch trees. It it it's something that I feel opens up from my heart.

Merry Elkins:

Mhmm.

Bob Martin:

It feels like almost another appendage for me.

Cathy Worthington:

Does it keep feeling like that all the time, or does it feel like that during your meditation?

Bob Martin:

It doesn't feel like that when I get angry. It does feel like that

Cathy Worthington:

when Yeah.

Bob Martin:

I'm alone. But but, generally, you know, if, if I as I I don't I don't feel that visualization. But having felt it, it changes what you want in life, and it really comes down to wanting to ease the suffering of others. It it it it's just that is, you know, what you want most in life. But I could ask, you know, I could ask y'all.

Bob Martin:

If you wanted to have a a new house I mean, I'm not saying you would, but if somebody wanted to have a new house, they wouldn't be wanting to have that house all the time.

Merry Elkins:

Mhmm. You know?

Bob Martin:

I mean, it would be in the back of their mind. And when things came along that had to do with the house, they would attend to it, but they'd also go to work, and they'd also talk to their boss, and they'd also make dinner for their wives and, you know, do all the other things in life, but there always is that I wanna have that house. Mhmm. And so when you develop this sense of wanting to ease suffering. It's like that.

Bob Martin:

It it's always in the back of your consciousness.

Cathy Worthington:

And is that something that Buddhism and Taoism have in common?

Bob Martin:

Yes. Mhmm.

Cathy Worthington:

Mhmm. So there's quite a bit of overlap.

Bob Martin:

Yeah. It's not about being a good person or making the life your the world better or anything like that. It's about being happy. Mhmm. It's about being it's very selfish thing in a way because it's it it is the path to happiness.

Bob Martin:

You know, the Dalai Lama once said, you know, if you wanna be happy, practice compassion.

Merry Elkins:

But that's what you're teaching people in your counseling services. Right?

Bob Martin:

Mhmm. Well, I I I teach them the skills that get you there.

Cathy Worthington:

Oh, yeah. That's better.

Bob Martin:

You

Cathy Worthington:

know? You need a little work to get there.

Bob Martin:

Mhmm. I kinda call it the work ethic of happiness.

Merry Elkins:

Oh, I like that. I like that.

Bob Martin:

Yeah.

Merry Elkins:

Yeah. You did a stint as an addictions counselor. So how can mindfulness and meditation benefit individuals navigating addictions and obsessive thinking and unhelpful, unhealthy habits?

Bob Martin:

So when somebody is deep into addiction, it it it's not a very mindful thing. There are there are brain functions that are occurring and brain chemistry that's occurring that the mind cannot overcome. Yeah. So, I mean, basically, you have to sit on them. You know?

Bob Martin:

I had a friend who we pulled them out of, shooting galleries in Harlem a couple of times, and we literally had to sit on him for a couple of weeks. You know? Somebody had to stay with him all the time, and sometimes we literally had to sit on him.

Merry Elkins:

But was he detoxing?

Bob Martin:

Yeah. He's detoxing, but he wanted to he came up with every reason in the world

Merry Elkins:

to go out and just need to get some fresh air.

Bob Martin:

I just need to that. And all he really wanted was to go, you know, cop. But then, you know, once you're past that and you start to regain your mind, and it takes, you know, a good 20, 30 days, before you can start to reconsider. That's why the 12 steps, you know, is really Mhmm. A wonderful program, not only for addiction, but 12 steps is a great life, program.

Bob Martin:

It it really is. I mean, just the the steps are wonderful, and, they are probably the best way for somebody to really work those steps, and it's a piece by piece process. But, like, for me in my own addiction, I went through that, and I, I worked the steps. But for me, there came a time when they they didn't learn to, and that's when the spirituality of Taoism and Buddhism, you know, fulfilled, the rest of my recovery.

Merry Elkins:

Beautiful. Interesting.

Cathy Worthington:

Beautiful. Well, now you're teaching business law and ethics at Elon University, so that's another switch, and that that you're providing a platform for influencing future leaders, which I think is some of your intentions. So how do you incorporate mindfulness and ethical considerations into your curriculum?

Bob Martin:

Well, you know, people kids, 20 year olds, who my my father used to say, that, anybody under 30 that's not a liberal is a scoundrel. Because at 30, you know, in the twenties, you're supposed to be idealistic and, voila, and tree hugging, and the world is great, and kumbaya. It's what you should be doing. And and these kids who are 20 years old, I teach them in the business school because I teach them business law. So these are all folks whose mostly their parents are very wealthy and in business or in finance, and they're sending their kids to this private expensive school Mhmm.

Bob Martin:

And they're taking business. And most of them, I I'd say a good half of them would really rather be somewhere else. Yeah.

Cathy Worthington:

That's not the thing they picked.

Bob Martin:

Right. Yeah. And they're in this silo, wanting to have yachts and the penthouse and all of these trappings and everything else. So I I hope that I can suggest to them that those aren't necessarily what gives you a happy life.

Cathy Worthington:

So that's interesting because you have to mix that into your curriculum so you can reach their souls, so to speak.

Bob Martin:

It's challenging.

Cathy Worthington:

Because they might wanna deviate from mom and dad's plan.

Bob Martin:

Mhmm.

Cathy Worthington:

They might wanna find something more meaningful to them.

Merry Elkins:

Mhmm.

Merry Elkins:

Yeah. But especially at 20, that's that's a tough one.

Cathy Worthington:

Do you have people coming to you and saying because of you, I've switched what I'm doing?

Bob Martin:

We do, one of the projects that I do in that class is, I start the beginning of the year and say we're gonna form a company. And, the first thing they have to do is decide if they're gonna be a a a an in corp a corporation or a limited liability company and make those decisions and fill out the paperwork to submit that to the secretary of state. And, of course, I'm the secretary of state. And then they have to make a business plan, and then they have to make contracts and do all the legal stuff that you need to start a business. And some of them decide that they wanna start a nonprofit.

Bob Martin:

Oh. And those are the ones that are most enriching to me. I'd love to see, you know, where they're going.

Cathy Worthington:

Mhmm.

Bob Martin:

But we I have a chance. What I'm really excited about, though, is that after this is my 7th year. I retired from lawyering in 2015. So this is my 2nd 7th year teaching at Elon. And, of course, you know, my my passion, my love is teaching meditation.

Bob Martin:

And I have been pushing and pushing. So a couple of years ago, there was this big movement called the Health Education University, the HEU.

Merry Elkins:

Mhmm. And

Bob Martin:

it was a wellness a movement towards wellness on the university campus. So for the past couple of years, I've been pushing to be able to teach my meditation course. And Beautiful. This year, I finally got it. They finally gave

Merry Elkins:

me a course.

Cathy Worthington:

The 1st year of 7 that you've been able to teach it. And it's offered but it's taught completely separately from the business. Yeah.

Bob Martin:

It's in the law. It's in the education school. Mhmm.

Cathy Worthington:

It's not

Bob Martin:

a school.

Merry Elkins:

It really shows that your mindfulness, teachings extend beyond academia. So talk about some of the most rewarding moments or transformations you've witnessed with your students and with other people, through your mindfulness teachings, the changes in them.

Bob Martin:

So, one of the young, young girls, young ladies women 20 is is female 20 something.

Cathy Worthington:

Yeah. We can call them women. We can call them women.

Bob Martin:

Alright. Okay. So, she's in class, and, we're about halfway through the semester. And the way that I teach it is we meet once a week, and I teach them a technique. And I give them an app that's proprietary.

Bob Martin:

It's it's only, yeah, my app. And they have all the guided meditations on that app, but it also has a log function.

Cathy Worthington:

Mhmm.

Bob Martin:

So after they do their meditation, they log it. They they'll say something like, oh, this was a terrible meditation because I was so distracted. I couldn't keep my focus. I couldn't concentrate. Everything kept pulling me away, and I didn't remember to follow the instructions.

Bob Martin:

And it was just terrible, and the dog was barking, and I got really mad, and then it was over.

Merry Elkins:

Sounds like meditation.

Bob Martin:

Yeah. Sounds like meditation.

Cathy Worthington:

Right. It does to me too. Yeah. We're we're both meditators.

Bob Martin:

I get to write back to them, no. It was a great it was a great meditation. Look at all the stuff you noticed.

Merry Elkins:

Yeah.

Bob Martin:

You noticed that your face was flushed. You noticed that the distraction made you angry. You noticed what that felt like. You noticed that time became compressed, that all of a sudden it was over. And I go through all of the stuff they noticed.

Bob Martin:

Look at all the data that you now have about yourself. So it was great. You know? And then, then you get these so I every single day, I get up at 4 o'clock in the morning, and I give them feedback on their logs. So there's 17 students, so I answer 17 logs, and they go get the feedback.

Bob Martin:

And right around 2 weeks of this, and they they say, no. I really try to focus, you know, but I couldn't or I couldn't concentrate. And I I I I I keep pushing that. I said, it's not about focus. It's not about concentration.

Bob Martin:

It it is about your mind wandering. It's not about keeping the focus. It's about noticing that your mind wandering and coming back and starting over. That's where the healing happens. If your mind doesn't wander, you're not meditating.

Bob Martin:

Everybody thinks meditating is about quieting the mind

Merry Elkins:

Mhmm.

Cathy Worthington:

About making you

Bob Martin:

be still, and it's not. It's about watching the mind.

Merry Elkins:

I'm on.

Bob Martin:

And Mhmm. Yeah. And so when they finally get that, when they finally oh, oh, I got it. I I understand. And then the logs change.

Bob Martin:

Oh, I noticed that my mind went here, and I noticed I was thinking about that. And now I'm beginning to notice that I have a lot of negative thoughts. And, oh, now I'm beginning to notice that, you know, there's this pattern. And and when that starts to happen, it's just beautiful. So this this one woman is not engaging.

Bob Martin:

So I I I I asked her to stay after class, and I said, Faith, what's you this is not a required class. It's it's an elective. You chose to come here, and you know that it's a practice just like going to the gym. You can't look at the machines.

Merry Elkins:

You have

Bob Martin:

to get on them.

Merry Elkins:

Well, we could do that too. The machines. You you

Bob Martin:

know this.

Merry Elkins:

Yeah.

Bob Martin:

And yet I see that you're not engaging. So, like, what's that about? Man, the floodgates just opened up. I just always get in my own way. It seems like everything I want, I sabotage.

Bob Martin:

I don't believe that I deserve it. I just don't think that you know? I don't know why I'm here. They never should have accepted me. You know, it was like imposter complex to the 10th degree.

Bob Martin:

Mhmm. You know? I don't deserve it. I don't deserve it over and over and over. So, so we were we were learning the labeling thoughts technique.

Bob Martin:

So I said, okay. So let me see. You had, a, an unworthy thought, you had this thought, you had that thought. And then I started asking her, how do you feel, and where do you feel it? Oh, it's in my neck and in my cheek, and we started to de deconstruct the panic that she was having into body sensations and thoughts.

Bob Martin:

Mhmm. And then when she could kinda get the component pieces of what was driving her, she started to be able to, like, manage it over the next couple of weeks. And by the end of the class, she came and she goes, I haven't panicked in the last week.

Cathy Worthington:

That's great because she obviously had a very, very good mind body connection where she could tell you it was in the cheek or in the neck because a lot of people can't tell or they they can't can't even observe that. So already she was miles ahead. She just didn't know it.

Bob Martin:

Yeah. And that's why yeah. I'm sorry. That's why we did blind scans.

Cathy Worthington:

Yeah. Oh.

Bob Martin:

Yeah. Go ahead. I'm sorry.

Cathy Worthington:

Yeah. I had a great meditation teacher who did teach us that it was all about the mind going out wherever and back to the and she was a, an Indian practitioner originally taught in India. She was a white American woman teaching, but she had been taught to give mantras. So everybody had a mantra that she gave us. And that helps when you have that kind

Bob Martin:

of meditation. Yeah. Yeah.

Cathy Worthington:

Because you can come back to the mantra. Yeah. Different technique. And, but you have a big background in criminal defense and social work. So how do you approach the issues of justice and equity in today's society, especially in systemic chain challenges and marginalized communities?

Cathy Worthington:

It's a deep one.

Merry Elkins:

Yeah. Big one.

Bob Martin:

So I I I I was doing criminal work and a lot of it. And so I I know that, what's her name? Who is just sainted? Okay. Sister

Merry Elkins:

You're not talking about Janet Reno?

Bob Martin:

No. No. Sainted.

Merry Elkins:

Oh, oh, oh.

Bob Martin:

The nun, from Calcutta.

Cathy Worthington:

Oh. No. Yeah. Not familiar.

Merry Elkins:

We know who you're talking about.

Cathy Worthington:

About mother Teresa?

Merry Elkins:

You're talking about mother Teresa. Mother Teresa.

Cathy Worthington:

I didn't even know what you're we're we're discussing here.

Bob Martin:

Mother Teresa, you know, she said, we can't we can't fix the whole world, but we can fix our little corner of it.

Cathy Worthington:

Uh-huh.

Bob Martin:

And, so when all of this came together for me, I came up with a commitment that when a client came into my sphere of influence, that when he went out of that sphere of influence, he would be more inclined not to be in the revolving door and not to reoffend and to have an effect on his life. And I felt there were 3 things that I had to accomplish. 1, he had to felt heard. He had to felt that I really wanted to know his story and that I really wanted to hear him and that he felt that he was heard. Mhmm.

Bob Martin:

The second thing that I wanted to accomplish was that he felt that somebody had stood for him. Mhmm. And the third thing was that whatever happened to him, whether he went to prison or was placed on probation or his case was dismissed, that he understood why what was happening was happening to him even if it wasn't fair, even if it wasn't just, that he understand the dynamics that brought about the unfairness or perhaps earlier things that he had done that resulted in the consequences. But he had a accurate idea of why it was happening, what was happening to him. And I found that if I could accomplish those three things, that the chances that he would reoffend really went down.

Bob Martin:

And even today, now it's 9 years after I stopped criminal law, I run into people on the street and they'll come up to me and they'll say, mister Martin, when you represented me, that was the last time I ever got a job. Aw.

Merry Elkins:

Oh, that's powerful. That's true. To all of life in a way

Cathy Worthington:

to so powerful.

Merry Elkins:

You know, to be heard and to have

Merry Elkins:

someone rooting for you and to understand when things happen as long as

Merry Elkins:

you're not making them. Understand when things happen as long as you're not making them happen, although you might probably are, why they're happening. And and I think that is really strong. Yeah. And talking about mindfulness, it's really gaining popularity over the years.

Merry Elkins:

So what advice do you have for individuals who perhaps haven't even thought about it, but are suddenly thinking about it? And, how do you navigate the challenges and the misconceptions about it? You you touched on that a bit.

Bob Martin:

Well, there's there's there's 2 things that I kinda bring in think brings it into focus. One is that we have a common expression that we always say. It's like, I had a thought. Mhmm. We always say, you know, oh, I had this thought.

Bob Martin:

Mhmm. Well, I would ask, who is the I that had the thought? Mhmm. Because most of us live in our thoughts and we are our thoughts. If I see somebody and I don't, like, think that the hair that fits them or their clothes are appropriate or I don't like the diction that they use, and I immediately I get a judgment about them Mhmm.

Merry Elkins:

And

Bob Martin:

I put them in a socioeconomic category, and I already know everything about them. And I do know. And that's my truth. Because I'm in my thoughts. I am living my thoughts.

Bob Martin:

I identify with my thoughts. But the truth of the matter is is that I'm not in my thoughts. I I am having these thoughts. And so the first the first, ring to freedom, personal freedom, is to understand that I am not my thoughts.

Cathy Worthington:

Interesting.

Bob Martin:

I I am the creator of my thoughts.

Cathy Worthington:

Ah.

Bob Martin:

And, therefore, the possibilities of designing a life where I actually have a say in the matter of my own life, that is a very real possibility. Mhmm. I love it when the Irish I love it when the Irish say, happiness is upon me.

Cathy Worthington:

Mhmm.

Bob Martin:

Sadness is upon me because there's this innate recognition that that's something that I'm having at the moment, but it's not me. Mhmm. It's the state that I'm engaged in at the moment, and it will pass. Is it this is knowing that I may be happiness may be upon me, but it may not be upon me tomorrow. It's upon me at the moment.

Bob Martin:

And that is a very freeing understanding, because, because of 2 reasons. 1 is that when you can step back from your thoughts and watch them, then, you know, you can evaluate whether that thought is helpful or not helpful. Mhmm. And if you decide that it's not helpful, maybe the next time, you know, it comes up, you'll do something about it. Ah.

Bob Martin:

Or the next time or the next time or the next time. But at some point

Cathy Worthington:

decide to decide to decide to think about it. Decide to think about happy thoughts Yeah. Instead.

Merry Elkins:

Yeah. That's where the meditation comes in. Right? Watching them.

Cathy Worthington:

Right.

Bob Martin:

Yeah. Choosing. Choosing. Yeah. And and, eventually, you clean out, you know, the attic a little bit, and that makes for more yeah.

Bob Martin:

If you go and you clean out your attic and you kind of organize it, it becomes more spacious.

Cathy Worthington:

Mhmm.

Bob Martin:

Your mind is

Cathy Worthington:

get rid of a lot of stuff.

Bob Martin:

Get rid of, yeah, the cobwebs and you kinda organize it a little bit.

Merry Elkins:

Right.

Bob Martin:

And then that spaciousness that people are talking about, that's where it comes from. Yeah. Uh-huh.

Merry Elkins:

It doesn't In all things.

Bob Martin:

Quieting.

Cathy Worthington:

Yeah. I know.

Merry Elkins:

Of all things.

Cathy Worthington:

Because I've been listening to a a podcast where they're discussing decluttering and how to do it because not necessarily to make your house look better, although it does. It's to clear your mind.

Merry Elkins:

Absolutely.

Cathy Worthington:

It has such a powerful, you know, it's so powerful to clear clear your mind, so I'm getting into that now a little

Merry Elkins:

bit more. I need to do that too. My attic is very, filled with cobwebs.

Cathy Worthington:

Yeah. But looking ahead, Bob, what are your aspirations for the future of mindfulness education and advocacy, both within academia and in broader society?

Bob Martin:

You know, when people first started jogging, everybody looked at them like they were really weird. You know, like Mhmm. Why are you running? You know? Why are you doing that?

Cathy Worthington:

Can remember when nobody ran.

Bob Martin:

Right. And now, you know, that's just another form of wellness Uh-huh. Johnny. I I jump. So I I hope that mindfulness kinda follows that path.

Merry Elkins:

And

Bob Martin:

then everybody thinks it's a little bit weird today, but, you know, over time, it becomes I teach sometimes I had this credible privilege of dealing with some of the kids in foster in in the foster system or dealing with kids coming out of the juvenile justice system. Mhmm. And it's the same it's the same practice. They they get the app. They listen to the guidance, and then they tap in their little logs.

Bob Martin:

And every day, I, you know, give them feedback. But I get to watch their I get to get inside their mind. Do you know how cool this is? I get to get inside their minds and, like, watch how it's all working in there. You know?

Bob Martin:

Uh-huh. It it's it's, like, it's, like, so cool. And one time, a 12 year old was, logged that he did I said, I don't wanna log about my I don't wanna log about my 15, 10 minutes. I wanna tell you about what happened today. And he said, I was out on the playground, and Johnny Johnny pushed me down.

Bob Martin:

And I wanted to get back up, and I hit him. But I remembered about my breathing, so I went over to the chair to the, bench, and I sat down and I breathe. And then I thought that if I go and if I hit him back, then we'll never be friends, and I wanna be his friend. Oh.

Cathy Worthington:

And That's where you know you've made an impact.

Bob Martin:

That's that's what meditation can do. Mhmm. And if if we would integrate meditation I mean, not I mean, everybody uses that word kind of, like, for trying to, like, go into a daze and watching the ocean or something. But if we usually use that kind of contemplative we taught that contemplative meditation, we taught mind skills to, you know, kindergarten, 1st, 2nd, 3rd graders, we would change the world in 1 generation. Mhmm.

Bob Martin:

In 1 generation, the world would be different.

Cathy Worthington:

I totally agree with you. I think that's

Merry Elkins:

really important to us. Would listen to you.

Bob Martin:

Mhmm. That's

Cathy Worthington:

such a good point.

Merry Elkins:

Yeah. Any other advice for today for our boomers?

Bob Martin:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So this really esteemed leader came to a Buddhist temple nearby, and I really wanted to hear him. So I went down to listen to him.

Bob Martin:

And, of course, you know, he's teaching, loving kindness and compassion and, you know, kind of like the Buddhist thing. And I'm listening to it, and, eventually, I just had to raise my hand. You know, I was getting a little antsy, and What? He says, yes, sir. What?

Bob Martin:

And I said, you know, teacher, for 4000 years, people have been going around teaching these teachings, and there's always been a small band of people that follow it. And the rest of the world's running around with swords and torches.

Cathy Worthington:

Mhmm.

Bob Martin:

So, you know, why do we think it's gonna be any different? I mean, really. And he says, irrelevant question.

Merry Elkins:

What?

Bob Martin:

And everybody yeah. He says, irrelevant question. I go, what? That's what what? Why?

Bob Martin:

And he goes, well, you know, no matter what I answer, are you gonna wake up and be any different than the good work you're doing today? I go, well, no. He goes, so, you know, relevant question. And everybody cracked up laughing. He goes, no.

Bob Martin:

Here's the answer, and this is what I wanted. This is

Cathy Worthington:

this is your advice.

Bob Martin:

This mhmm. You never know when the tipping point is gonna come.

Cathy Worthington:

Ah. Mhmm.

Bob Martin:

You never know. So you get up the next day and you go do your thing and you keep up and you take care of what's on your plate today, and you do the best that you can with it, and you make the little differences that you can, and you wake up tomorrow, and you do the same thing. You wake up the next day, and you do the same thing because you never know when the tipping point's gonna come.

Merry Elkins:

Mhmm. That is that makes total sense, and

Merry Elkins:

I love

Merry Elkins:

it. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, Bob. Our guest today on late boomers has been Bob Martin, professor of wellness and mindfulness and former attorney defense attorney.

Merry Elkins:

You can contact Bob at awiseandhappylife.com. Is that also where they can get your app?

Bob Martin:

They can get well, the app comes with the course. Okay? The app comes with the course, but I have there's 56 gigabytes of resources that they can download for free there. Most important, though, there is a 40 page primer, a primer

Cathy Worthington:

Yeah. It was.

Bob Martin:

Introductory book. It's a meditation. It's called, is meditation for me? What it is, what it's not, how to do it, and how to get started. Mhmm.

Bob Martin:

And it's about 40 pages. It answers all the questions. It gives a basic, instruction, and it points you to resources.

Merry Elkins:

Mhmm.

Bob Martin:

And it's a free ebook download, and there's no obligations. I I just I just put it together because everybody asks me the same questions.

Merry Elkins:

And that's something that our audience could download, by going to your website.

Bob Martin:

Mhmm.

Merry Elkins:

So Yep. That's awisand, happy life.com.

Cathy Worthington:

A wise and happy life.

Bob Martin:

Yeah.

Cathy Worthington:

Yes. I love that. Tune in next week, listeners, when we will be meeting Richard Bangs, great world explorer, who will advise all of us boomers on travel we should not miss, and please subscribe to our late boomer boomers podcast on YouTube and take us along in the car and on walks on your favorite audio platform. Let us know what gets you inspired. We are on Instagram at I am Kathy Worthington and at I am Mary Elkins and at late boomers.

Cathy Worthington:

Please share the late boomers podcast info with your friends who may not yet be listening to podcasts. Spread the word. Thanks again, Bob.

Bob Martin:

Thank you, and thank you for the work that you do in giving a platform to people like me.

Cathy Worthington:

It Oh.

Bob Martin:

Really makes a difference.

Cathy Worthington:

Beautiful. Thank you.

Cathy Worthington:

Thank you for joining us on Late Boomers, the podcast that is your guide to creating a 3rd act with style, power, and impact. Please visit our website and get in touch with us at lateboomers.biz. If you would like to listen to or download other episodes of Late Boomers, go to ewn podcastnetwork.com.

Merry Elkins:

This podcast is also available on Spotify, Apple Podcast, and most other major podcast sites. We hope you make use of the wisdom you've gained here and that you enjoy a successful third act with your own style, power, and impact.

From Courtroom to Calm: A Mindful Journey with Bob Martin
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