From Wall Street to Art Success: Miriam Schulman's Journey
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Cathy Worthington:Welcome to Late Boomers, our podcast guide to creating your third act with style, power, and impact. Hi. I'm Kathy Worthington.
Merry Elkins:And I'm Mary Elkins. Join us as we bring you conversations with successful entrepreneurs, entertainers, and people with vision who are making a difference in the world.
Cathy Worthington:Everyone has a story, and we'll take you along for the ride on each interview, recounting the journey our guests have taken to get where they are, inspiring you to create your own path to success. Let's get started.
Cathy Worthington:Hi. I'm Cathy Worthington. Welcome to the Late Boomers podcast. For you artists and creatives of all ages listening today, my co host Mary Elkins and I have a great guest for you to meet, Miriam Shulman, art business coach, host of the Inspiration Place podcast, and author of the step by step guide to making a sustainable living from your creativity.
Merry Elkins:And that's the book, and I'm Mary Elkins. Maryam has helped thousands of artists around the world develop their skill sets and grow thriving art businesses art businesses so they can have the time and freedom to do what they love. Welcome, Miriam.
Miriam Schulman:Oh, thanks so much for having me. It's such an honor to be here.
Merry Elkins:It's great to have you. Nice.
Cathy Worthington:Please tell us about your background and some of the obstacles you faced and what led you to pursue your art full time.
Miriam Schulman:Okay. So ever since I was in the fourth grade, I wanted to be an artist, but like many girls, I was told or many people, I was told, well, you can't make a living that way. And I believed them. So when I went to college, and I was a financial aid student, so I didn't have the luxury of doing something that I didn't believe could support me. I took the practical route, and I went to work on Wall Street.
Miriam Schulman:Woah. How however, when nine eleven happened, I knew I couldn't go back to that world, and I decided that I would do something different with my life. So I wasn't quite sure what that was at first. I painted on the side because I still didn't believe I could make a full time living from my art. I knew I wanted to do it, but I didn't believe I could make money that way.
Miriam Schulman:And I took a job at first teaching Pilates at a gym. When I was working for the gym, they taught me selling strategies to offer personal training packages because these upsells are a big income source for for for gyms. And it was then that I had my moments that these selling strategies could be used to sell anything, including art. And that's when I dedicated myself, not not to the gym, but to selling my portraits.
Cathy Worthington:Oh, that was your moment.
Miriam Schulman:Yeah. Well, there was the wake up call of 09:11, and many of us have similar moments in our lives. Sometimes it's a global event, 09:11, the pandemic. Sometimes it's an illness, a divorce, a death of a loved one that wakes us up to how precious life is and what is it that we're gonna do with our lives.
Merry Elkins:Yeah. So true.
Cathy Worthington:We started our podcast during COVID, you know, and and that was when remote, recordings like this were just not so commonplace. Now they are, but, you know, you we had a way to reach out and went for it.
Merry Elkins:We sure did. We just went for it. A lot of people don't go for it. They have great ideas, but they don't do anything about it. You did that, Miriam, which is that's why things happen.
Merry Elkins:But I have a question, about you were talking about not believing that you could do it or you were told that you couldn't do it. Is that something that could sabotage someone's success and artists especially, artists especially, their success?
Miriam Schulman:Yeah. It's not just artists. My book, Artpreneur, is directed towards creative people. And by artists, I don't just mean painters. It can be anyone in a creative field, but really any creative entrepreneur.
Miriam Schulman:There, there is a lot of social conditioning that is at play, especially, as you mentioned, for artists, but also for women. We're told not to take up space. And we're given that message both explicitly and implicitly through the diet industry, you're supposed to be small. If you I live in New York City, so I see, men and women riding the subways. The men have their legs splayed out, the women are sitting all cross legged, they're trying not to even take up physical room with their bodies.
Miriam Schulman:So being given the message that you shouldn't desire sex and money has an impact on how we build our businesses. And then as you said, Mary, many people have ideas, but they talk themselves out of it.
Merry Elkins:Wow.
Miriam Schulman:And what happens, it happens on a subconscious level. Some of it is the external programming, but a lot of it really is our own our own brain survival mechanism because we have as humans have survived our brains have evolved for survival, not goal achievement. So anytime we're going to do something that makes that's new, that makes us feel uncomfortable, our brain's gonna come up with all kinds of reasons why it's a terrible idea. And the smarter you are and the, more creative you are, the better you'll be at coming up with all those reasons. And this is also, of course, then where social conditioning is gonna come into play because those could play into your subconscious reasoning.
Miriam Schulman:So you have you wanna do something, but it caused you fear either on a conscious or unconscious level. That leads to doubts whether this is going to work. Those leads to those stories. And what happens next is you're either going to go into procrastal learning mode because you have to figure it all out because that way you won't fail or you wallow in confusion and overwhelm. Deer in the headlights.
Miriam Schulman:I don't know what to do. But either way, that generally will tend to lead towards procrastination or not taking the steps to do those great ideas that you have. So it is not your fault if that's you. Mhmm. The three of us are not any aren't special.
Miriam Schulman:We just kind of push past that and did it anyway of what our what what our dreams were.
Cathy Worthington:Right. Well, you know, you talk a little bit about the belief triad. So what is that and how does it help raise our money mindset?
Miriam Schulman:Okay. This is I love the belief triad. So if you followed any kind of self development, you've heard you gotta believe in yourself. We've all heard that. We've heard you gotta believe in what you do.
Miriam Schulman:That's two parts, your belief in yourself, belief in your art or what you do. The third part of the belief triad really is critical, and that is belief in your audience or your customer, and that's where people will sabotage themselves the most. In my book, Artpreneur, I use an analogy with the movie Pretty Woman, and you've both have seen it, right?
Cathy Worthington:Yeah.
Miriam Schulman:Seen it? Yeah. Okay. My friends like to tease me that my book is for women of a certain age, you know? Well My references are from the nineties.
Miriam Schulman:Okay.
Cathy Worthington:So watch that too.
Miriam Schulman:Yeah. So right. Right. Alright. So but just to refresh everyone's memory, there's that scene where Julia Roberts, goes to Rodeo Drive to buy some clothes.
Miriam Schulman:Mhmm. She has Richard Gere's go kart, but but those mean salespeople won't wait on her. Mhmm. Now a lot of us think when we're in business that we're not that mean sales per person, but how many times have we thought to ourselves, she doesn't have the money. She won't pay.
Miriam Schulman:This is probably too expensive for her. You offer discount before they say yes or no. That's what a lack of belief in your customer actually looks like. You're being that mean sales lady, not on purpose, but that's what's happening. So that's how you end up sabotaging your sales.
Miriam Schulman:And if you have uncertainty about your buyer, they will pick up on that. Now that could be uncertainty you have about yourself, but any kind of uncertainty they're going to pick up on and it's repellent. The kind of energy you need when you're in business, especially when you're selling, is you need that confident energy to attract and make people feel comfortable about buying from you.
Cathy Worthington:Oh, I'm buying a little bit about the money mindset. And what's what's the triad?
Miriam Schulman:Okay. So the triad is there's three things, belief in your art or what you do. So what you do could be you sell website design. It could be that you are a therapist. It could be that you whatever it is that there's belief in yourself, belief in what you do, and belief in your customer.
Miriam Schulman:The customer is the third piece.
Cathy Worthington:Okay.
Miriam Schulman:So that is the triad.
Cathy Worthington:Yeah. I didn't quite understand. What words and phrases should people stop saying in order to raise their money mindset or get into this triad?
Miriam Schulman:Okay. So, it's less about getting into the triad, but but some things that we tell ourselves and we say it like we're the facts and it's a knee jerk response, but it really lowers your money mindset. The number one thing I think that we should all eliminate from our vocabulary is stop saying I can't afford that or it's too expensive.
Merry Elkins:Mhmm.
Miriam Schulman:Tell yourself the truth. The truth is I choose not to buy that or I choose not to make that a priority at this time. But when you constantly are saying, I don't have money,
Merry Elkins:then you don't have money.
Miriam Schulman:Like right. And and it's, like, I can't afford that. It's it's not probably not even true. Like, okay, it's a hundred dollars more than maybe what you want to pay. The truth is you don't choose to prioritize buying that thing at this time.
Miriam Schulman:I choose not to, not that you don't have the money. So that, that's a very powerful thing to, to watch yourself and reframe that.
Cathy Worthington:Yeah. I like that.
Merry Elkins:Any other phrases or words?
Miriam Schulman:Yeah. The I so I can't afford. It's too much money. So the I don't have money is is one of them. I can't afford that as well.
Miriam Schulman:Is that really true? And is it too expensive? Well, maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Maybe you just don't feel comfortable spending that, that's okay, but that doesn't make it too expensive.
Merry Elkins:Yeah.
Miriam Schulman:And the reason why it's important to be careful with these with these with these phrases is because if you're offering something for sale and you're always labeling these other things as too expensive and you can't afford it, you will think that's what your customer's thinking about you.
Merry Elkins:Mhmm. Good point. You know, Yeah. For sure. Talking about the belief triad, a lot of it has to do with trust.
Merry Elkins:Doesn't it trust in yourself? So many people don't trust themselves to actually accomplish what they'd like to accomplish. How do you feel about that?
Miriam Schulman:Yeah. Mary, that's a really great point that you you brought up. So earlier, I said that if you are feeling unsure about any part of the process yourself, your art, or your customer, that belief triad, you're going to repel. So you need to feel confident. So how do you gain confidence?
Miriam Schulman:I love to tell the story about one of my clients, in the in the book Entrepreneur, I called her Margaret. Not her real name, real person, but not her real name, of course. And Margaret came to me and she said, you know, I know that I'm supposed to do these things that we were talking about, but I procrastinate. And I says, well, why do you think that is? And she says, well, it's because I I don't have good confidence.
Miriam Schulman:I said, no. It's the other way around. You lack confidence because you procrastinate. So if you look at the definition of self confidence in the dictionary, it actually says trustworthiness. Oh.
Miriam Schulman:Self trust in a person or a thing. So every time you don't do what you say you're gonna do, it erodes that confidence. And every time you do what you say you're gonna do, like you you Kathy and Mary, how you start said you're gonna start this podcast and you did it, it increases your confidence.
Merry Elkins:Absolutely. Yeah.
Cathy Worthington:It does. I get it. That really makes sense.
Merry Elkins:So people don't often use the word artist and entrepreneur in the same sentence. Can you give us pointers on how artists can become entrepreneurs and maybe a few steps that would empower them to do so?
Miriam Schulman:Yeah. The very first thing is and this is why I called, my first chapter choose to believe. So remember how we started this whole conversation? I said, I wanted to be an artist. I just didn't believe that that was possible.
Miriam Schulman:So the very first thing that you should do if you wanna become an artist, or really if you wanna do anything in the world, is declare that identity. And that's why I started Artpreneur with a quote by Oprah Winfrey Yeah. Which is and I'm just gonna just read it word for word because Please. It's not worth paraphrasing it. Every time you state what you want or believe, you're the first to hear it.
Miriam Schulman:It's a message to both you and others about what you think is possible.
Merry Elkins:Oh, I love that.
Miriam Schulman:So for somebody who wants to make it as an artist, I tell them, tell everybody you know. I am an artist and claim that identity. It's a way for you to articulate what you do to the world and to not second guess yourself and and keep away from imposter syndrome. But I give that advice, Kathy and Mary, to any woman who is looking to step into a new new role. I am a podcaster.
Miriam Schulman:I am I am a, clothing designer. I am a whatever it is. Tell everybody you know who you are. Make it true for yourself.
Merry Elkins:That's true. I am a writer. I am an expert.
Miriam Schulman:Writer. I'm a exactly.
Cathy Worthington:Mhmm. Yeah. That's such a good piece of advice, and it's so hard to actually do that, to step out of your comfort zone and tell somebody that if you haven't been labeling yourself as that before. Yeah. You know, somebody that's been quietly painting art and keeping it in the closet and doesn't even mention it.
Cathy Worthington:And then to start calling themself an artist to other people must be so
Miriam Schulman:hard. So hard and so empowering once they start start. So I got a message the other day from a new client. I think she's in her late fifties, and she said she's been telling each of her friends one by one. And at first, it was so hard, and now she's unstoppable.
Miriam Schulman:Like, it has been so empowering just to be able to start declaring that to everyone.
Merry Elkins:And in a way, it's a promise to yourself that you have to do it because all these other people it's a total commitment because all these people are expecting you to do it. Mhmm.
Cathy Worthington:Yeah. And how important is it for social to have social media for artists who wanna sell their work?
Miriam Schulman:Well, here's where I get to be a little bit controversial because I have some opinions about that. Okay. So when I first started writing Artpreneur, the average engagement rate was one percent. So I was writing Artpreneur in 2022. And by the time I went to edit that chapter, the average engagement rate had dropped to 0.6%.
Miriam Schulman:And let's just be very clear what that means. That means out of a thousand people, only six people will be engaging with you. That's what point 6% is. Okay? Not 60%, not 6%, zero point six %.
Miriam Schulman:Now we're in 2025. The engagement rate on Instagram has dropped to 0.4%. And for all those influencers, the people who you're seeing who wanna teach you how to increase their your engagement rate if you just pay them money and do what they say, Well, their engagement rate is also less than 1%. It's better than point 4%, but it's like maybe point seven. So that is why social media is not an important part of your business strategy.
Miriam Schulman:And anyone who's been relying on it, like the TikTokers, had a wake up call this month when it was almost banned. So then the question is, what's the alternative? So that is why I encourage everyone who's in business to build an email list.
Cathy Worthington:Oh, yeah.
Miriam Schulman:The average open rate for an email list is between 2550% and that's even still true in 2025. Email marketing is the cockroach of marketing, you can't get rid of it, it is not debt. Oh. So even if we use that low number, 24%, don't worry, I've done the math, I'm very good at math. So if you want to get the same results with email marketing as Instagram, you would need 6,000 followers on Instagram to get the same number of people to to see what it is you're posting as a hundred people as email subscribers.
Miriam Schulman:So which is easier, getting a hundred email subscribers or 6,000 Instagram followers?
Merry Elkins:Mhmm. Good point.
Cathy Worthington:I'm not sure because for podcasters, I'm not sure how podcasters build an email. I guess we have to offer something.
Miriam Schulman:Right. So right now
Cathy Worthington:offer something.
Miriam Schulman:Here is how I do it. If you're listening to this podcast and you want a chapter of my free a chapter of my book, go to schulmanart.com forward slash believe.
Cathy Worthington:Mhmm. And
Miriam Schulman:you put your name and your email, and I will send you a free chapter. So that's how I do it for to get people to then join my email list. And then every week, whenever I have
Merry Elkins:a new
Miriam Schulman:podcast, I send it out in my email.
Merry Elkins:Interesting. Right.
Cathy Worthington:What can we learn from famous artists of the past, like Matisse, about how how artists can sell their work?
Miriam Schulman:Oh, that's it. I love this question. Okay. So, there were two sisters who collected lots of art who lived in Baltimore, Maryland, and this was at the turn of the century. They were uber, uber rich.
Miriam Schulman:Their family had, made cotton that was sold to Levi Strauss to make jeans and also made the uniforms of World War one. So they had a lot of money, and they used their money to buy art. They could buy any art in the world that they wanted. The younger the sisters, the one who passed away last, bequeathed her collection to the Baltimore Art Museum. And in it, there were 700 Matisses, and only a hundred Picassos.
Merry Elkins:Only.
Miriam Schulman:Now she could have bought any art she wanted, and this was not when Picasso wasn't more expensive than Matisse. It had nothing to do with that, by the way. Okay. So the reason why she bought so many more Matisse's was because he used to write her letters. Oh.
Miriam Schulman:So he would write her letters saying, here's the art I'm working on. I think you would like this. What can we do now in 2025 that's like writing letters?
Cathy Worthington:Email. Ding. Ding. Ding. Ding.
Cathy Worthington:Ding.
Miriam Schulman:Yes. Writing emails.
Merry Elkins:I love that. Letters do work, and especially personal handwritten ones.
Miriam Schulman:They do still work. So one of the things that I do tell my clients is in addition to the emails is to send postcards to their best collectors and clients in
Cathy Worthington:the
Miriam Schulman:mail, because there's no spam filter on your front door.
Merry Elkins:Ah, that's true. Is that one way an artist can build a signature brand?
Miriam Schulman:Yeah. Well, a a signature brand is more about your reputation. So it's more than just your colors and your logos. It's really what people say about you when you're not around. So building a signature brand is really about being real and honest and authentic and telling stories.
Miriam Schulman:Because right now, we're living in the world of AI, and just putting out words that a robot can put out isn't going to do it anymore. So people wanna hear from you. They want your stories. And like you were hinting at, Mary, they want, you know, a physical thing that they can touch. Maybe you signed it, wrote a personal note on it.
Miriam Schulman:Anything that you can do to personalize the experience, make them feel like they really know you. No matter how big your business is, it will grow bigger because of that.
Merry Elkins:And it makes them feel important too because you've taken the time to write to them.
Cathy Worthington:Yes. I have a question. What are the five most common mistakes people make when they're creating and selling their art and their services.
Miriam Schulman:Okay. Alright. So let's start with, a few of them we've already touched on. Mhmm. But one of them is that cheaper the belief or the myth that cheaper is easier to sell, and it's not.
Miriam Schulman:So I'm gonna give you some different examples. Would you hire the cheapest babysitter for your child or your grandchild?
Cathy Worthington:Probably not. But,
Miriam Schulman:if I really would. If you it depends if it is. Right? If
Cathy Worthington:the best. Yeah.
Miriam Schulman:Sometimes. Right? Okay.
Cathy Worthington:Grandma. Grandma.
Miriam Schulman:Grandma. We all know about that. But what about your furry pet? If your pet needed surgery that would extend its life for another five years and your vet told you it's gonna be $2,000, are you gonna look for the vet who only charges a hundred $90?
Merry Elkins:No. No. Mm-mm.
Miriam Schulman:Or if you needed plastic surgery, you're not looking for the cheapest?
Merry Elkins:No. Looking for the best.
Miriam Schulman:Yeah. So our customers are not looking for the cheapest either. What they're looking for is what's known as reassuringly expensive.
Cathy Worthington:Reassuringly expensive. Good.
Merry Elkins:I have to write that down. I like that.
Cathy Worthington:I mean, how do we think? Otherwise, nobody would buy designer watches. Everybody buys very expensive watches.
Miriam Schulman:That's a good one. So I I did not talk about designer watches and my book, Artpreneur, because the publisher thought I would alienate readers. So if I talk about designer watches Oh, you are
Cathy Worthington:actually going to, but that's how
Miriam Schulman:you do it. I I am not a consumer. This Yeah.
Cathy Worthington:That's how those things got so big.
Miriam Schulman:Well, I mean, but look at men. It's like, you know, they men especially, they love their expensive watches even more than women do.
Merry Elkins:Yeah. Yeah.
Miriam Schulman:So you could not sell a Rolex watch on eBay for $47. You couldn't. You couldn't do it. Nobody would believe it's real. And even if you tried asking $400, they still wouldn't buy it.
Miriam Schulman:So when I was researching this part of the book that never made it into the book, I went to a used jeweler in my town, to see what they were charging for used Rolexes, and their cheapest used Rolex was $6,000, which was more money than what it cost to buy a brand new one online. I mean, I know they're all over. The prices are all over the place.
Merry Elkins:Time. Definitely. Yeah.
Miriam Schulman:Yes. But the reason why is because the jeweler understood that he had to price it that high so people would believe that it was real, that if he priced it too low that he would lose the sale.
Cathy Worthington:Mhmm. Mhmm. I think it's funny I thought of watches. I mean, maybe just
Miriam Schulman:Yeah.
Cathy Worthington:Because it then you were researching watches.
Miriam Schulman:Well, because it's one of those things that gets a high price tag or, like, a designer bag. Like, why? You know, why is this so expensive? It it's and there's there's something called a Veblen good, which people actually it's named after the economist Veblen, where people will actually pay, want to pay more. They desire it more because of a high price, like a Birkin bag or a very expensive watch.
Miriam Schulman:Those are examples or a Tesla.
Cathy Worthington:I'm gonna have to hit on some other do we need some more mistakes people make in creating and selling?
Miriam Schulman:Yeah. I mean, we talked about the idea of, procrastinal learning because, you know, your brain gets in the way. And we talked about social media. That's a big one. People believe that they just need a bigger audience.
Miriam Schulman:They think that's their problem when, really, the problem is that they're trying to sell cheap things at a volume. So a lot of times people have a problem, but they misdiagnosed the problem. Like, oh, I only need a bigger social media following. No. No.
Miriam Schulman:You you really actually only need to raise your prices or use email or use publicity. So, usually, it's it's a misdiagnosis of what their problem is, and I do walk you through all five of those common problems in in my book.
Merry Elkins:Yeah. So you use PR publicity.
Miriam Schulman:Oh, of course. Why why am I here?
Merry Elkins:That's true. Why are you doing the podcast? Exactly. Well, talk as long as we're talking about that, talk about your book, Artpreneur.
Miriam Schulman:Thank you. So, I wrote the book to recenter women in both the art world and the business world. And by recentering, it doesn't mean this book isn't for men. It's just that I'm inclusive in what I'm talking about in the book. So the book, it does have lots of women, people from different backgrounds, different religions.
Miriam Schulman:And I I felt it was it's hard enough to believe that you can do something like become an artist that is important to show examples of what's possible no matter who you are or what you look
Merry Elkins:like. Well, you talk about marketing diseases in your book. What what is that? What are they?
Miriam Schulman:We'll we'll pick one. Okay. So, one of the one that I talk about is Sleeping Beauty Complex.
Merry Elkins:Mhmm.
Miriam Schulman:And in the Disney movie Sleeping Beauty, the fairies, one of the the evil fairy says she pricks her finger. She's gonna die or whatever, fall into a sleep. I I forget the exact details. But the fairies then the other fairies are gonna hide her away in the woods. And the next time you see Sleeping Beauty, you know, she's this beautiful grown up woman.
Miriam Schulman:You don't see the braces. You don't see the glasses. You don't see the pimples. You don't see, you know, any of that puberty nonsense. Okay.
Miriam Schulman:Now many of us want our businesses to be like that. We wanna keep it hidden away and not take it out when it's going through that adolescent stage. We wanna wait till it's perfect. Oh. The I'm not ready yet.
Merry Elkins:I'm guilty of that.
Miriam Schulman:Oh, many of us are. This is why I talk about it. Many of us are guilty of that, and we wanted our to be a grown up business before we take it out into the world. But it really needs to go through that whole you have to love I call it you have to love your baby now. So, Kathy and Mary, it's just like with your podcast.
Miriam Schulman:I'm sure the podcast now is a lot different than it was in 2020.
Merry Elkins:Totally. Mhmm.
Miriam Schulman:Okay. And it's gone through a lot. You know, it's grown up since then. It's grown up in five years. Could you imagine if you didn't wanna bring it out in 2020 because it was just this baby podcast?
Cathy Worthington:Yeah. We didn't know what we were doing, so we did it anyway.
Merry Elkins:Right. Right.
Miriam Schulman:You're not supposed to. It's okay.
Merry Elkins:Yeah. You know, men do that too. Men just go they don't do the sleeping beauty contest. They just believe in themselves and they just go for it, often when they don't even know what they're doing.
Miriam Schulman:Yeah, they actually have statistics that back up what you're saying so that, women, before they apply for a job, have will have will think they have to meet a % of the criteria, whereas men will apply for a job even if they only meet 60% of the criteria. So they actually have statistics to back up exactly what you're saying.
Merry Elkins:And probably they get hired. They probably do.
Miriam Schulman:Well, it's what we've talked about earlier. Confidence is magnetic.
Merry Elkins:You are so right. Talk about another marketing disease.
Miriam Schulman:Rapunzel style marketing. So they're all they're all, like Treasure.
Merry Elkins:I love the way you do that with fairy tales.
Miriam Schulman:Yes. So what does Rapunzel do? Rapunzel's up in her tower waiting for the customers to come to her. So that is what Rapunzel style marketing is. And sometimes, I I see artists who well, they have a website, but they don't have sales.
Miriam Schulman:And I'm like, yeah. You're waiting for the fish to jump into your boat. I mean, you have to go out, and and that's what marketing is. You have to go out and look for them. So Rapunzel style marketing is you think things just happen to you.
Miriam Schulman:You just wait for something to somebody to rescue you.
Merry Elkins:It doesn't. It's not fate?
Merry Elkins:How about another one?
Cathy Worthington:Characters? You have a Mickey Mouse one? No. I don't. Another scary princess one?
Miriam Schulman:You know, there's one that I talk about not in my book, but I've been talking about a lot. I don't think I made it into the book. But Moana, the the little Hawaiian girl. So the story of that one your your grandmother, so you both have seen that one?
Cathy Worthington:I'm not a grandmother. I I see everything animated anyway.
Miriam Schulman:Oh, you do? Did you see the movie Flow, by the way?
Merry Elkins:I heard about it. I hear you.
Miriam Schulman:I saw that by mistake with my husband the other night. We wanted to see another movie, and we walked into the wrong theater. And, like, fifteen minutes into it, my husband says,
Merry Elkins:I don't think this is the preview. You know? Like
Cathy Worthington:And you loved it?
Miriam Schulman:Yes. Yes. It's animated. No talking. Just calming music and animals.
Cathy Worthington:Well, then you'll love the wild robot. The wild robot is fabulous. Like, that I
Miriam Schulman:will write that down.
Cathy Worthington:Story. Great story. Hardly any dialogue. Beautiful animation music.
Miriam Schulman:So back to Moana.
Cathy Worthington:Yeah. Marketing Moana.
Miriam Schulman:The story or the theme there, it to just to for people listeners who who didn't see the movie, is they had this beautiful enchanted island, and it suddenly is not abundant anymore. And what happened was there was this goddess who had lost her heart. And then I'm this is a spoiler alert. So if you don't wanna know how Moana ends, you can fast forward this part. Okay.
Miriam Schulman:So they go out, and there's this lava monster. And it turned out that the lava monster really is the goddess without the heart. And that's what a lot of us experienced during the pandemic, this feeling of losing our creativity and losing our heart. And what happens when you lose that inner core is you become burnt out, Creative burnout, which I see as being like the lava monster. It's like you can't create in that state.
Cathy Worthington:Mhmm. Yeah. So
Miriam Schulman:it's about being willing to refill the creative well and nurture that heart that you have.
Cathy Worthington:And I was listening to a message on a podcast the other day on the Mel Robbins podcast. She had a guest on that was explaining that anxiety is a reverse of creativity. Mhmm. So if you're feeling this anxiety, it's cutting off your creativity and creativity can get rid of anxiety. So that's an interesting point too, that, you know, your creativity can kind of save you from the spiral you're going down.
Miriam Schulman:Absolutely. So
Cathy Worthington:if if we get anybody to encourage their creativity today, this will be a good step. Tell us about your podcast now and your online classes. What is your podcast called?
Miriam Schulman:Well, if you like what you heard today, my podcast is called The Inspiration Place, and it's for you if you are in business or you're creative or you want to hear, more of our discussions about mindset, creativity, how to keep yourself from procrastinating, how to keep yourself from, perfectionism. So all those things that hold us back from growing into our fullest, most evolved version of ourselves.
Merry Elkins:Awesome. What about your online glasses?
Miriam Schulman:Yeah. I do right now, the only thing that I have offer online is I coach artists, which are visual artists on the business side of being an artist. I do have a free class for anyone who's listening. It is how to sell more art without being Instafamous.
Cathy Worthington:Mhmm.
Miriam Schulman:And you can access that class by going to Schulman Art. Schulman is with a c, s c h u l m a n a r t, schulman art dot com slash master class. Oh, sorry. Schulmanart.com/sellmoreart. All one word, sell more art.
Merry Elkins:And that would go really not just for visual artists, but artists and creatives of all sorts.
Miriam Schulman:Any kind of creative entrepreneur. It will we'll touch upon the five problems. One of them we talked about in great depth today, which is about, pricing, but they're in in my book, Artpreneur, there are five foundations for building a business, and every problem correlates to a solution. So it's a production problem. There's a production solution.
Miriam Schulman:And the five areas are production, pricing, prospecting, promotion, and productivity.
Merry Elkins:Well, we'd love to hear more about pricing, but I wanna ask you about empathy and how it leads a customer to purchase something. You touched on it a little bit, but let's talk about it. What we all know well, maybe we don't know what empathy is, but how do you use it in sales?
Miriam Schulman:I'm really glad you asked that, Mary. And we did touch upon it a little bit, but the way I talk about it in Entrepreneur is when you get an objection. For example, we talked about this earlier. Somebody says, I can't afford that. What is really going through their mind?
Merry Elkins:You don't
Miriam Schulman:believe it's too expensive. What's really going through their mind? So if I'm trying to sell a $5,000 painting to Kathy, Kathy isn't necessarily thinking whether Miriam Shulman is worth 5,000, whether Miriam Shulman's painting is worth 5,000. Kathy's probably worried about, is she worth spending $5,000 on?
Cathy Worthington:Oh.
Miriam Schulman:That's why that belief triad is so important because you have to believe in your customer more than they believe in themselves. I have to believe that Kathy is worth spending $5,000 on.
Cathy Worthington:How does an artist price their work then? You mentioned charm pricing and prestige pricing. Okay. Find that a little bit.
Miriam Schulman:Okay. So charm pricing is
Cathy Worthington:kind
Miriam Schulman:of like Target or Walmart pricing. You walk into any Target or Walmart, and everything is $14.97 or whatever. It's something dot 97. Store. It's a five pack.
Miriam Schulman:You know, it's a package of of underwear, dollar 49 each. Now the the idea of charm pricing is pricing something below the decimal point, or it could be not below the decimal point, but $497 instead of $500. With the idea of, not so much tricking somebody, but the person will think of it as $497. They will think of it as being in the 4 hundreds rather than rounding it up. Now sometimes that is a good thing to do, but not always.
Miriam Schulman:That's where prestige pricing comes in. Now prestige pricing, it's not necessarily about pricing something higher. It's about rounded numbers. So pricing instead of for $14.97, pricing it for $15. Instead of $4.97, pricing it for $500.
Miriam Schulman:They did research on champagne where they priced the champagne at $39, 40 dollars, and $41. And the $40 champagne sold the best. And the reason why, the researchers said, is because the rounded numbers are processed by the emotional side of the brain, where these odd numbers, these fourteen ninety seven, four 90 seven, four 90 nine, those off numbers are processed by the logical side of your brain.
Cathy Worthington:Oh.
Miriam Schulman:So if you're selling a luxury good like art, which side of the brain do you want your customer using? The logical side or the emotional side?
Merry Elkins:Yeah.
Cathy Worthington:Yeah. The emotional side every time. Yeah.
Miriam Schulman:Every time.
Merry Elkins:Well, talking about pricing, how does an artist price their own work? I mean, it could be you look at it, you've worked hard on it, you've say you've never actually stepped out, and now suddenly you have this gallery opening because you've been painting all of these in the dark, shall I say. You haven't stepped out. You have one of the marketing diseases of Rapunzel. And so but how do you put a value on your own art?
Merry Elkins:And then you have been saying there's no money in the middle. What do you mean by that?
Miriam Schulman:Okay. So that's two different concepts and both excellent questions. So, let's you wanna let's tackle the pricing first. So first of all, you're not gonna be Rapunzel up in your tower. You will be like those champagne researchers and always bringing your art out and testing it.
Miriam Schulman:And if something is selling too quickly, you need to raise your prices. So, things should take longer to sell. That is the right way it should be. So to always be testing higher prices, I remember when I was selling prints for a let you know, my a good size, 11 by 14 for $68, and I thought that was the sweet spot. They sold well.
Miriam Schulman:And then one year because I'm teaching this all the time, and so I'm like, well, let me test that. And I raised the prices to $75, and they sold better. And then I raised the prices to a hundred dollars, and there was no drop in sales. So I've seen this happen over again with my clients as well. One of my clients, Kayla, was really afraid that if she raised her prices that she would lose her income and but she was burnt out as a vet tech.
Miriam Schulman:She had two small boys, and she lived in Arkansas. So not in New York City, not in a a wealthy community. And she was getting $1,500 for her her, commissions, which is a lot, but I knew her customers would pay more. So she raised her price to $3,500, and the same customer came back and bought it, and he didn't complain about the higher price. Not only did he not complain, but he bought the $3,500 canvas as well as two additional artworks.
Miriam Schulman:So she made so much more money just by raising her prices, and that makes a world of difference. 2,000 extra dollars, that's life changing for a single mom with two boys.
Merry Elkins:Yeah. Yeah. Well, talk talk about the money in in the middle. I'm I'm curious. There's no money there.
Miriam Schulman:Okay. So this is about people pleasing. So people pleasing, whether you're doing it to your family or you're doing it to your customers, people pleasing, for those who aren't familiar with the term, it you you you basically want to do what's most popular, what everybody wants. And by by that, I'm not saying you shouldn't follow trends, but we're if you're doing it just to please people, so you don't want to share your authentic self. You're afraid of who's gonna judge you because maybe you're single, maybe you don't have kids, maybe you're Jewish like me.
Miriam Schulman:So all these things you're worried about. But what happens is that people never really get to know you. So even though just by my saying I'm Jewish right now, there's people here who who listen, who that's gonna be a big turnoff for them. And that's fine. I'll take that because there's gonna be people on the other side who are gonna be, you know, happy that I'm I'm brave enough to say who I am.
Miriam Schulman:Where there's no money is the people who are not willing to share their true self, whatever that is.
Cathy Worthington:Whatever it
Miriam Schulman:is that they're afraid of that's gonna turn people off.
Merry Elkins:Well, you do talk about embracing in your book, I believe, embracing your inner weirdo. Can you talk on that a little bit?
Miriam Schulman:Yes. Okay. So, the word weird dates back hundreds of years. So in Shakespeare Macbeth, there were the weird sisters, and weird didn't mean the same thing it means today. So weird actually meant magical or fate or destiny.
Miriam Schulman:And what happened is over the centuries, as the supernatural became vilified, the word weird took on a negative connotation. So what I talk about in that chapter, embrace your inner weirdo, is those very things that we think make us weird are what makes us magical. That's what people want. They want to see the real you. Even if you have braces and glasses and pimples and your business is still a baby and you're still figuring it out.
Cathy Worthington:I get it. And, Miriam, what would you like our audience to have as a takeaway to me?
Miriam Schulman:Okay. So I'm gonna end today, with the final words in the same way I ended the book artpreneur, which is to keep marching forward. So if you're not sure what direction to go in, it doesn't matter. If you go 10 steps in the wrong direction, you'll learn a lot more than marching in place or staying still. And do not blame your boots.
Miriam Schulman:In other words, don't blame the circumstances. Keep putting one foot in front of the other, and you will get there.
Merry Elkins:Oh, I'd love that. That's that is the best advice. Thank you, Miriam. Our guest today on Late Boomers has been Miriam Shulman, art business coach, podcast host, and author of The Step by Step Guide to Making a Sustainable Living from Your Creativity. You can reach me at Myriam, yes, Myriam, via her website schulmanart.com.
Merry Elkins:That's schulman,art.com. And Miriam, please tell our audience again how to get a free chapter of your book and how to, join your master class free.
Miriam Schulman:Sure. So the two free gifts I have for you today are chapter one, choose to believe. Go to schulmanart.com/believe, and I will send you chapter one for free. And if you wanna jump in on that free masterclass, how to sell more art without being Instafamous, go to schulmanart.com/sellmoreart. Both are free.
Cathy Worthington:Perfect. Thanks for listening, boomers and artists of all ages. Tune in next week when we will have another exciting guest to inspire you. Please subscribe to our Late Boomers podcast on YouTube, and take us along in the car and on walks on your favorite audio platform. Let us know what gets you inspired.
Cathy Worthington:We are on Instagram at I am Kathy Worthington and at I am Mary Elkins and at late boomers. Please share the late boomers podcast info with your friends who may not yet be listening to podcasts. Thanks again, Miriam.
Miriam Schulman:Oh, thanks so much for having me. This was so much fun.
Merry Elkins:It was great. Thank you.
Cathy Worthington:Thank you for joining us on Late Boomers, the podcast that is your guide to creating a third act with style, power, and impact. Please visit our website and get in touch with us at lateboomers.biz. If you would like to listen to or download other episodes of Late Boomers, go to ewnpodcastnetwork.com.
Merry Elkins:This podcast is also available on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and most other major podcast sites. We hope you make use of the wisdom you've gained here and that you enjoy a successful third act with your own style, power, and impact.
