Publishing Secrets with John Bond
This is the EWN Podcast Network.
Cathy Worthington:Welcome to late boomers, our podcast guide to creating your third act with style, power, and impact. Hi. I'm Kathy Worthington.
Merry Elkins:And I'm Mary Elkins. Join us as we bring you conversations with entrepreneurs, entertainers, and people with vision who are making a difference in the world.
Cathy Worthington:Everyone has a story, and we'll take you along for the ride on each interview, recounting the journey our guests have taken to get where they are, inspiring you to create your own path to success. Let's get started.
Cathy Worthington:Hello. I'm Kathy Worthington welcoming you to a new edition of late boomers, and I'm here with my cohost, Mary Elkins. Today, we are going to chat with editor, publisher, author, John Bond. He has overseen the publishing of 500 books.
Merry Elkins:And I'm Mary Elkins. John is the author of a three book series, the Little Guides. He takes authors from idea to plan and to finding publishing. All of us boomers who have books brewing in us need to get to know him. Welcome, John.
John Bond:Well, thank you very much for having me on today. It's a pleasure to meet both of you, and I really appreciate the opportunity to speak to you and your audience.
Merry Elkins:Well, we appreciate your being here too.
Cathy Worthington:It's a good subject for us. Please tell us a little bit how you got started on this path to counseling authors. What led up to this?
John Bond:Well, when I was a preteen, my, I grew up in Bucks County in Pennsylvania. My parents used to go to house auctions, and many of them they went to and were in Princeton, New Jersey. And at the very end of the auction, the books would go because nobody wanted to take the books away. So they would buy for a couple dollars or $5 these ten, twenty boxes of really interesting books, and young John just dove into looking at all these interesting things and thinking about the stories that were in all of them and then starting to collect them. Early on, I worked as a librarian in a high school, and then I determined I wanted to do something else.
John Bond:So I had the opportunity to get a position at a publishing company in South Jersey, which is where I live. And I started as an editor and became managing editor and then book publisher and eventually chief content officer. It was a great opportunity, and I met with some tremendous people on the author side, but also on the publishing side. And about ten years ago, after having worked there for thirty years, I determined I wanted
Merry Elkins:What company?
John Bond:The name of the company was Slack Incorporated. It goes by the YNO Group now. It is an academic publisher. And so about ten years ago, I determined I wanted to do something different, and I started doing publishing consulting, but I also do other things as well now. And I connect with authors or publishers or associations, and I help them, think through developing great content and most importantly, delivering great content.
John Bond:So it's been a journey to connect within, authors and to have the experience of being an author myself.
Merry Elkins:Wow. That's great. Well, how does one, other than sitting down at the computer or at your notepad, how does one get started writing a book?
John Bond:It's a great question. I think the really, the first part is asking yourself what your motivation is. Do you just want to express yourself? Do you have a story to tell? Are you interested in being a storyteller?
John Bond:Do you have a nonfiction book that you would like to write? So thinking through your motivations, always suggest, is the first place to start. Mhmm. And most likely, in your mind, maybe for years, maybe for decades, you've been thinking about writing. And maybe there have been times when it was in high school or college or as a young adult or beyond that you started to make small attempts at a short story or an essay or a blog post.
John Bond:And then you start to think, well, maybe I wanna do more than just this. At that point Mhmm. Start to think through the form that your work best fits. As I said, it could be a short story. It could be a novel.
John Bond:What would the genre be? Or maybe you're interested in writing for the Internet and, like I said, a blog post or something else. And then start to think through what you want to say. At the end of the day, the most important thing is it really be from the heart it's something that's very important to you and something you really want to express, and that you really use quality as your guide. So you wanna use something that speaks to other people and that they feel is gonna touch them as well.
John Bond:I'm not talking about grammar, and and, of course, that's important. I'm talking about have a message that you know resonates with your core audience. However small that might be, because the beauty of the days of the Internet and Amazon is you can have a very niche topic and definitely reach your audience, or you can have a very broad topic. You could wanna be the the next Stephanie Myers or Kirk or or Kurt Vonnegut or Stephen King. And that's a great that's a great goal to have.
John Bond:But so really starting out with what your message is and what the format that you wanna deliver it in.
Merry Elkins:Absolutely. Yeah.
Cathy Worthington:And then say we get that together, how do we find an agent?
John Bond:Oh, wow. We we jumped we jumped a bunch of steps, but I'm so I'm gonna pull it up.
Cathy Worthington:I wanna I wanna we can go back and pick up the steps.
John Bond:No. No. No. So here, let's let's do that.
Cathy Worthington:I'm happy to pick up the steps.
John Bond:No. Let's do that. Let's let's say you've written your
Cathy Worthington:novel. Agent?
John Bond:Okay. Absolutely. Let's do
Cathy Worthington:it. Okay.
John Bond:Let's let's say you've written your novel, and then let's say you've had a bunch of people you know that are the target audience read it and give you honest feedback. I'm not talking about your spouse or your parent or your best friend. I'm talking about people that are the target audience, and you've given them permission to give you honest feedback. You've looked at all the feedback, and you've been honest with yourself. Some of it probably resonates and is true.
John Bond:Some of it maybe isn't the isn't the image of what you want or the picture of what you want for your for your book, and you've made those changes. Now you have your final draft of your novel that you have really done the best job that you could possibly do, and that's really key. Now you're gonna go look for a way to publish. So there are two avenues. You can seek a publisher, and there are plenty of publishers that allow you to approach them directly, or you can seek an agent.
John Bond:This goes back again to motivation. If you want to get published at Random House or the like, you're going to need an agent. They don't accept unagented requests. Ah. But with Yeah.
John Bond:But with some publishers, they are more than willing to accept unagented requests. So your motivation is really important. If you wanna be at the top of the New York Times bestseller list or if you wanna be on a on an Oprah like TV show to talk about your book, then you are gonna need an agent. Let me take them and set them both aside here. So for the publisher, you're gonna really want to know the the competitive and comparable books that are in your area.
John Bond:They should be well known. They should be in print. Please don't say there's nothing like this that's out there because there's all because there's always something that's competitive for your book.
Merry Elkins:How many books how many books would you need to come up with for an indie publisher?
John Bond:I think what you should do I think we should do is you should have a complete census of what's out there. So it's not that you have to go through every science fiction book, but you really have to know the books that compete directly against yours. I'm not gonna put a number to your census, but it should take a while. This is not I sit in a couple hours while I while I'm watching TV. When you do send it into the publisher and and if they ask for comparable titles, I would suggest four to eight, and it really depends on the niche you're in.
John Bond:If you're in a very specific
Merry Elkins:authors. Right? Four to
John Bond:eight different authors. Authors, remember they should be in print, and they should be popular. I would not suggest self published books as comparable books unless they are enormous bestsellers. So you would also want to look at your market. Who specifically is your market?
John Bond:And and what that tells you is well, first, let me say, don't say everybody that loves romance or everybody that loves espionage is the market. Be more specific. Think about a profile. I know that's a bad word, but profile the people that would be your target market for your book. Use these things to start to think about the type of agent or publisher that you would like to approach.
John Bond:As for agents, there are two great databases. I can send them to you, and you can post them in the show notes. I don't
Merry Elkins:mean great.
John Bond:I I don't personally use them. I know people that have used them that that have really said good things about them. There is a fee. It's usually a month by month fee, but there are people on there that are agents that you would wanna go through and think carefully about your genre and what what what your target market is. When you're looking for agents, look for ones that specialize in your area.
John Bond:So that's very, very important. If they only want 10 pay a 10 page sample, do not send them a 20 page sample. If they only want x y z, don't send them x y or x y z a. Stick very closely to the requests or the mandates from the agent, and do not deviate from them. They're looking for a reason to cross you off the list.
John Bond:One more thing from agent one more thing from agents, an agent should never be paid. So if you come across somebody that said, for x number of dollars, I'll look at your book or x number of dollars, I'll give you feedback on the market, that's not an agent. They are somebody that's making money off of being an editor or promotional editor or developmental editor. So they only get paid through royalties when you when your book is sold. So be very careful.
John Bond:A lot of people call themselves agents that are not really.
Merry Elkins:Mhmm.
Cathy Worthington:That's interesting because, of course, Mary and I know that from the entertainment business too. You you don't pay your agent upfront. They get paid when you work.
John Bond:That's right.
Cathy Worthington:So that's really important.
Merry Elkins:Absolutely. Good info. I have tons more questions about this, but, let's talk about you you you started to talk about finding a publisher.
John Bond:If you wanted So with a pub
Merry Elkins:As far as if you we have spoken about, like, getting the big one of the big five. It's Random House, Penguin. What are the others?
John Bond:Yeah. So if you're looking for an independent publisher that's not one of the ones that only accept unagent only accept agented material, Start to look at the the genres that they're in and how active they are. So let's say if you find a publisher, sometimes a regional, sometimes a medium sized publisher, or even a small publisher that you feel will do right by you in the traditional publishing model, look at what they're currently publishing. So sometimes people will do some research and see, I see somebody's done this book on dystopian fiction, and I really like that. However, that book may have been from ten years ago.
John Bond:Right. And then you go and look at what they're currently publishing, and you find out that they haven't been publishing that much. So what their current list is from 2024, '20 '20 '5, and maybe from 2026 will be very valuable. They'll tell you where their where their emphasis is right now.
Cathy Worthington:And you would expect that information to just be available on the Internet in general, or are you sending an inquiry letter to them?
John Bond:What do you have? If you go to the publisher's website and you go to their book listing, many times there'll be a filter of what's available. So you'll be able to filter by most recent or by year, and you'll be able to scroll through it by the genre that you're in and see what's there. Another thing that you're able to do is go to Amazon. Amazon's got some great points.
John Bond:It's got some negative points. They are, unfortunately, the de facto people in this market, but they also are sometimes not the best friends of publishers and authors. Having said that, if you go to Amazon or something similar and you go to their advanced search section and you start to look at similar titles or titles that you particularly know, you'll go and you'll see a drop down that not only allows you to search by author, title, but also by publisher. So by putting that publisher in there and then separating and filtering it by year, you'll be able to see that information at Amazon. Now when you find it at the publisher, it's the most accurate at the publisher, whereas Amazon puts in what they know, and sometimes they have it right, and sometimes they don't.
John Bond:So finding publishers that are doing good solid work in your genre that are active in that area now versus in the past would be the best way to proceed. And then you go to their website. It usually says how to submit a proposal or a book to them. Then once
Merry Elkins:again if you would, because I think that indie publishers require more than an agent does as far as what you submit to them. Is that correct?
John Bond:That is. Sometimes, even for a novel, they request a book proposal. A book book proposal is a 20 to 25 page or longer document, industry industry standard of the topics it covers, and it goes through and gives you exact information about what they want about you, an extended table of contents, the market, as I said, the competitive books, and then something that's very important. Don't everybody groan right now, but they wanna know about your author promotional platform. Yes.
John Bond:And what and what this means is twenty, thirty twenty, thirty, forty years ago, the publisher was solely responsible for the marketing and promotion and distribution of the book. And increasingly today, they want the author to participate in it to a certain degree and to be able to connect with their audience. Do not say to the publisher, well, I'll do whatever you want. That's my author promotional platform. They're looking for you to understand and be able to connect with your market.
John Bond:And that may be through a significant social media account, maybe through
Merry Elkins:speaking significant on this tell me tell
John Bond:me what it really comes down to is your genre and how much the social media account is about that. So if you have your Facebook page that your friends and relatives have all connected with and you have 500 connections, that's not specifically about your book and about that market. But if you have, let's say, a Twitter account or a x account where you're only speaking about young adult books and you have an active following on there among people that are active in that area, that will be a more significant following. Let's say you also have a podcast that you do or you have a YouTube channel or and and so on. So there are ways that they wanna know you wanna connect with your audience, and you're gonna explain to them about your new project and get them as excited as you're going to as they want to be.
John Bond:So from that point of view, the author promotional platform is you giving exact details over how you would connect with the audience. So going back to what you were saying, Mary, sometimes independent publishers will request many things from you more than what an agent may, and one of the things might be that author promotional platform or the book proposal.
Merry Elkins:A question. What if like, this is the late boomers podcast. We our audience is late boomers, boomers, and above and below. We have young people listening too. But what if you write a book that is for younger people, but you are older?
John Bond:Well, I don't think anybody really thinks about when they think of classic books, the age of what the author was. So whoever wrote The Joy of Cooking, nobody's really thought how old were they when they wrote it because what they're really going by is how great the recipes are and how great the instructions are. So from that point of view, I think if you speak if we're talking about a novel here, if you speak in a genuine voice and you have a message or a story that you wanna tell that will connect, whether it be timeless or geared towards a specific, time of life, what really matters is your voice and the genuineness genuineness of it. Now to be honest, if you're selling a novel to 25 year old men, sure, it would be better if you were a 25 year old man, but at the end of the day, it's your story and the genuineness of it that matters. So I don't think it's solely the criteria, but of course, it does help with being connected through that author promotional platform.
Cathy Worthington:It's really difficult because authors have to use the other side of their brain to do all the marketing, and it's not the side of the brain that they use when they sit in a room writing on the computer or a notepad. It's a completely different switch. But you're saying but sounds to me like if you're gonna write, say, a novel, you need to be developing your social media the entire time you're writing the novel.
Merry Elkins:That's right.
Cathy Worthington:So that you're ready going out of the gate. You can't start creating social me social media followings, to my experience, take two to two, three, four years to accumulate. You know, if you're gonna get a bunch of followers, if you've got a niche market, these kind of things. It's not overnight. So what do you tell people about that?
John Bond:You've hit on something that's very important. I have to say I've had the experience of speaking to many authors that say, simply want to write the book, and I want nothing to do with marketing or promoting it. I get that. And I and I understand that perspective, and that was a perspective for many years, the forties, fifties, sixties, seventies, eighties, maybe into the nineties, maybe even into the o's, but that's really not the situation as much today. Remember, it doesn't all fall on your shoulders, but it is important because you are the person that is the best ambassador, the best advocate for your book.
John Bond:You're gonna have that enthusiasm. When I see the two of you and the genuineness of your interest and enthusiasm for doing what you're doing right now, nobody can do this for you. Somebody couldn't come in as an intern and promote your podcast the way the two of you do with your energy and enthusiasm right now. Going back to your comment about starting early, it's very, very important. You are correct.
John Bond:While you're thinking of your idea, that is the time not for you to plan social media to get followers, but that's the time for you to start to think with how you're gonna connect with your audience, and it can take many forms. The one thing I do wanna caution with social media, and I think a little bit, Kathy, you fell into the trap there, is by it's a place to gain followers. And, really, what you have to think about for whatever the channel you do, whether it's a podcast or social media, speaking engagements, writing guest blogs, doing a YouTube channel, speaking live, you have to do it as a genuine thing that brings you joy and brings you energy to connect with that audience. The thing I'm really interested in when I speak with authors one on one, I'm really interested in hearing their idea and helping them to whatever their motivation is to try to find a place that's right for them. It could just be self publishing, and they're gonna have a few hundred books that they're able to distribute to friends, or it could be that random house moonshot that we talked about.
John Bond:So from that point of view, you really have to be into it and be really excited about doing it as opposed to, let's say, at the end of your novel, you click spell check, and you go back and say, this is the thing I had to do. So there has to be a bit of energy enthusiasm for it. And if it's done as a responsibility, it will lack a little bit of what it needs.
Cathy Worthington:Mhmm. Right. I get that. When do you usually tell people they should self publish?
John Bond:So let's use three different terms. There's self publishing, there's hybrid publishing, and traditional publishing. Traditional publishing is the random house model. You give it to them, they take all the responsibility, they pay all the money, and they pay you a royalty. Some people complain about how much a royalty is, but at the end of the day, if you're a first novelist or a first time author, you're happy to have a book contract.
Merry Elkins:That's right.
John Bond:Self publishing years ago was called Vanity Press, and it had a bad name to it. But today, it's something completely different. If you use a service like Amazon Kindle Direct or IngramSpark, you're able to completely create a quality product that rivals anything that Random House would put out if you're willing to invest your time and your treasure with that. Now having said that, all you end up with is is a book. Could be a paper book.
John Bond:Could be an ebook. So what that means is this the analogy I like to make there is the same thing about the tree falling in the forest. If you create that book, never do any marketing and promotion of the self published book, never tell anybody about it, is it even a book if nobody's ever bought a copy of it? So the the the author promotional platform is even more important for self publishing. So you have to be prepared to to be that person that gets out there and beat the drums.
John Bond:In the middle is hybrid publishing. And what hybrid publishing is something that it may be right for some, but I want you to think very carefully about. These are a group of companies. I mean, there's a fair number that they ask you for some money to offset their hard dollar costs Mhmm. Such as, can you give us some money to offset the the typesetting or the page makeup or the printing or this or that?
John Bond:And then you'll get a much higher royalty back. There are some good hybrid publishing companies out there. But I will say there are a fair number that all they are is self publishing in disguise, and they just want to give you the illusion that there's a greater marketing and distribution push between them. So you really need to grill them, and I mean grill them over specifically what they're doing dealing with marketing and distribution to not make them a self publishing company.
Merry Elkins:So give us some examples of of the type of questions you need to ask?
John Bond:What they're gonna say is they're going to say, well, your book's gonna be available through Amazon and Barnes and Noble, and your book's gonna be available to any bookstore that wants to order it. But is that really doing anything? I mean, any book that gets into the system gets listed at Amazon and Barnes and Noble. Mhmm. They're gonna say, we're gonna put it on our social media account at here at hybridhybridpublishing.com.
John Bond:I made that URL up. So we're gonna put it on our social media account. But how many followers do they have, and how much is that influenced people? They're gonna say, we go to these two big book trade events, and you have the option of displaying your book there. Once again, how much of your target how many of your target audience are at these events?
John Bond:Mhmm. So what you're gonna wanna know is of your target audience let's use romance for an example. How do they connect with the romance audience? How are they into romance specific book websites or bookstores or the like? So you're gonna wanna find out specific thing specifically things that they're going to do.
John Bond:If they always turn around and say, well, for an additional $795, you can have your book.
Merry Elkins:Or 7,000.
John Bond:Yeah. Put or or, know, you can have your book promoted at the romance bookstores. So all they're doing is adding on additional fees based on the initial big fee that they charged you. So you wanna really impress them. The more that they squirm, the more I be would be reticent.
John Bond:And the more they're happy to answer your questions and give you specific details about your genre, the more I might be interested in them being a true hybrid publisher.
Cathy Worthington:Good to know. Yeah. Great advice.
Merry Elkins:Thank you. Let's talk about ebooks.
John Bond:Okay.
Merry Elkins:They are obviously the future, But do you believe that they are the future? And also, will people still have hardback books to read where they can hold them in the middle of the night when they wake up rather than turning on the screen? Sure. It'll keep you up all night. Talk about ebooks.
John Bond:So the the what the one of the good things that come out of the pandemic was the proof that paper is nowhere near going away. I mean, paper saw a resurgence at the beginning and the middle of the pandemic. And even now that we're in post or, or at the or afterwards of the pandemic, you start to see that paper books still have a high interest in certain areas. Now we can all agree that certain things, encyclopedias, dictionaries, whatever, have have been dramatically affected by the digital revolution. But when it comes down to paper versus ebooks, it really is a very genre specific thing.
John Bond:So there are specific genres to go back to, say, young some young adult books, horror, science fiction, romance. Some of these really predominate in the ebook fashion because of the voraciousness of some of the readers. But there are plenty of places where people still want paper books, and paper books still are very popular in certain genres or with certain certain categories of readers. What I would say is think of it this way. What you really need to have, as I said before, a quality idea, a great story to tell, something that is of interest, that's what you're all about as an author and about your book.
John Bond:Worry a little bit less about the format. Just like at one point, there were only hardback books, and then there were paperback books. Now now there are ebooks. So you're really signing a contract for your idea and you as an author versus a specific format. Sometimes people concentrate on the ebook because they think, as self publishers, it will significantly reduce the cost, of course, which it would, for all to be an only available as an ebook versus a paper book Paper paper book.
John Bond:So from that point of view, that's the reason why some people bring that dialogue up, but concentrate more on making the best quality book, product, or novel you can and worry a little bit less about the format is what I'd
Merry Elkins:say. Interesting.
Cathy Worthington:Yeah. Well, what what's your opinion really on whether people still read books? Are they reading them do you think it's generational? Are the boomers reading more than the younger people?
John Bond:Well, let's do a quick poll here. Do the two of you read books?
Cathy Worthington:Yes. I read books. Yeah.
John Bond:I'm an I'm an active reader. I I invite everybody to lot. Yeah. I I invite everybody to connect with me on Goodreads. I try to read one one book or more a week.
John Bond:And some of them I do some of them I do as audiobooks, which is a great and increasingly popular format. Yeah. So from that point of view, I do think books will continue to have value. We have to see them in a different way. We have a deep fondness for a picture of us sitting on the subway, seeing other people reading a paper book and connecting with them and thinking, oh, I've read that book before.
John Bond:I wonder what that person's all about. Some of that's still taking place. Some people may be reading it on their phone and not getting the same credit for reading the books they did years ago. Certainly, books have become shorter because of our decreased attention span and because of our love of the love of things that are shorter. But there are still plenty of books that are immersive, and certainly the Harry Potter series from twenty years ago is a prime example of some very large page count books.
John Bond:And then the author, Kent Follett, seems every one of his books are 800 or a thousand pages.
Cathy Worthington:Yeah.
John Bond:So I would say books are still popular. They may skew shorter, and they may skew digital unbeknownst to some of us, but they're just as popular. I think people love good stories or great information still.
Merry Elkins:Yes. And we all excuse me. We all want a place to escape at times.
John Bond:Of course.
Cathy Worthington:Yeah. And the way I more than others. I'm always amazed now when people are reading hardcover books because once the Kindle came out, I never looked back. I didn't I read everything on Kindle because it's lightweight. I can prop it up on a pillow.
Cathy Worthington:I don't have to turn the pages.
Merry Elkins:Or on your phone.
Cathy Worthington:I don't have to have the light on to read. I love it. And I I read a lot of books, but they're all on the Kindle.
John Bond:Well, I have to say a fair number of people my age will then start to talk about the the tactile feel of holding the book. Yeah. I know. And then certainly either the smell of an old book or the smell of a new book and just that feel of being able to look ahead and understand its true length. So I applaud you for converting over to ebooks, but I also know there's a fair number of people that love that tactile sensation.
Merry Elkins:I do too. And and frankly, when I I read on my on my my iPad and when it runs the battery runs out, guess what? I can pick up a real book.
Cathy Worthington:Yeah. The Kindle But the Kindle even works outside in the sun, and I like to read outside. Yeah. The I just really enjoy it.
Merry Elkins:I do too.
John Bond:Yeah. The Kindle's really evolved in such a tremendous fashion. They now have something called I think it's called WhisperSync, where you can have a paper, electronic, and audio version of it. And wherever you go to, it then syncs into if you were on audio and you go to the digital version, it knows exactly where you are and holds your exact place all the way through. Wow.
John Bond:So it's really interesting to see the interplay between those three.
Cathy Worthington:And mine does do that from the Kindle itself to my iPhone. So if I open up the Kindle app on the iPhone, I'll be in the same page.
John Bond:Yeah.
Merry Elkins:Mine does mine does too. And then But
Cathy Worthington:I think the idea of having the Audible be on the same page would be great because then you can go in the car and keep reading. Right?
Merry Elkins:Yeah.
Cathy Worthington:But I I sometimes I don't do a lot of Audibles because I I I tend to be thinking about something else and I miss the point of the book. And when I'm reading, I I that never happens.
John Bond:I either with audiobooks or with podcasts do a lot. I I'm I'm able to still run, so I'm a runner. And so I enjoy doing it then. When people bring up the zoning out, I do think sometimes when I'm reading, I get to a page. I'm like, what did I just read?
John Bond:So I feel like I feel like I do zone out just as much with paper books as I do with audiobooks.
Merry Elkins:Yeah. Well, especially if it's same way that when you're driving. Yeah. Sometimes sometimes when you're driving, you can Sure. Lose track of where you just were.
Merry Elkins:Where was I? Where was my mind? Same thing with, yeah, sometimes I think that perhaps the author might have lost you somewhere if your mind wanders. So you have to be very careful as a writer, I think, to make sure that you don't wander off because then you'll send your reader off. What do you think about that?
John Bond:I do I do note authors that are very particular to read that you really have to go along at every word, some really great literary fiction books that I've read over the years, and you cannot stray at all. And it's really the height of a compliment to them that everything they're saying is that important. And while I do love certain books, I do love Stephen King, sometimes you could sort of zone out for a couple pages, and he's describing something about breakfast. So from that point of view, those books are a different kind of enjoyable read. But if you do zone out, you're like, what did I really miss there?
John Bond:Unless that's where they found the dead body. So it does make me appreciate the authors where, every word matters.
Merry Elkins:Well, at least it doesn't put you to sleep.
John Bond:Yeah. That's right.
Cathy Worthington:And and Mary and I have had a book group for years, and I have another book group too. And sometimes people come to the meeting and they're like, I I just couldn't follow this, and they're just not close reading it because a couple of the books we've done, you have to read every every bit of it. And it's also choice and good. I'm blanking on the author's name, but we've read two of them. I think it's Powers.
Cathy Worthington:Robert Powers who wrote Overstory.
John Bond:Overstory is a great book.
Cathy Worthington:Playground. Well, both of those books, my girlfriends in the book group are going, this is too hard. And I'm going, you guys, like, they think of themselves as literary people. If you can't read those, it they're so good. Overstory just took my head off.
Cathy Worthington:I thought it was the best thing.
John Bond:Well, first first, I love Overstory, but I will defend your girlfriends in saying that those are two serious Major League books. So for people to read them and get through them, kudos to the people and the people that don't, it's tough to say because they are two very powerful books.
Merry Elkins:Yep. Well, it's everybody's really busy these days, and everyone has a shorter attention span. Give give us, like, two or three ideas of what you consider literary fiction as far as the books that you've read and the authors.
John Bond:Oh, and this is where my memory starts to fail me over over exact names. I you on the spot. No. No. That's okay.
John Bond:I am a fan from when I was younger of the John Updike's and Philip Ross of the world
Merry Elkins:Oh.
John Bond:Who who really wrote some very memorable characters. John Updike with the rabbit is rich person. I converted years ago to a Japanese author who's very popular called Haruki Murakami.
Merry Elkins:Murakami.
John Bond:And Murakami. He really just is a tremendous writer and really very very, very interesting and has some really novel concepts. I am a fan of Margaret Atwood, of course, of Handmaid's Tale fame and some of the other works that she's done. And then I'm a fan of and I'm gonna send this to you because I'm not gonna be able to think of it. The woman that wrote Brokeback Mountain is a short story writer.
John Bond:Oh. And then she also is a novel writer, so I'm I'm unable to grab that name either.
Merry Elkins:Yes.
Cathy Worthington:So Yeah.
Merry Elkins:What about novels that you considered good that perhaps people could use for comps these days? Do you have any recommendations on those?
John Bond:What I would do is develop, as you said, a a reading group that you're part of that's willing to read in your genre, and then start to connect with people that are in that genre genre other than yourself and start to find out what their favorite titles are. People loved people who are in book readers love to talk about books even when they don't remember the authors' names.
Cathy Worthington:Mhmm.
John Bond:And then start to connect with those people in that group and say, oh, I see you really like, historical fiction or science fiction or whatever. What are some of your favorites? So by using the six degrees of separation idea and connecting with like readers, I think are some of the best way to find those comp books. They're just
Merry Elkins:so favorites of contemporary write you know, contemporary novels?
John Bond:Of contemporary literary fiction?
Merry Elkins:Or just whatever pleases you that may not be considered literary fiction.
John Bond:I I wish I had them right now on my on the tip of my tongue. I'm sorry I don't have them in in that exact way.
Merry Elkins:To pin you to the wall there. Just curious. Well, so
John Bond:I mean
Cathy Worthington:So so, Josiah, I'm I'm writing a book, and I I I'm gonna I'm gonna get it together. I don't mean literally because I haven't written a book. But how do I know there's a market for my book?
John Bond:Well, I think, first of all, if you if you can come to if you can come to peace with classifying your book into a genre Mhmm. I think I think then there's going to be a market for it. What the difference is is whether you're satisfied with the size of your market. So if you said there is a young adult fantasy novel
Merry Elkins:Mhmm.
John Bond:It's gonna be an enormous market that you have.
Merry Elkins:Right.
John Bond:Whereas if you say it's historical fiction, and it's about the late Roman Empire, It's a smaller genre, but there is one there. And if you say it's a LGBTQ horror novel, then you're gonna say, oh, that's interesting. I wonder what the size of that market is. So there are gonna be markets once you come to the agreement that you're gonna classify it. And the reason why I say you come to p you come to peace with, classifying it is many, many people I talk to say, well, my book spans many genres.
John Bond:It could be in this section of the bookstore, in this section of the bookstore, this section. And in point of fact, no book is in multiple sections or very few books are in multiple sections. And so you have to say, although my book may be of interest to different readers, if I'm gonna go look for it in a Barnes and Noble store or similar or your local bookstore, they're only gonna have it at one place. What is that one place? So you have to come you have to come to peace with classifying your book and having that, if you're familiar with the term, elevator pitch, where you can explain the book in a minute and a half to somebody, then I think that you're gonna find a a a market for it.
John Bond:Could be a small market. Could be a large market.
Cathy Worthington:Yeah. Good advice.
Merry Elkins:Thank you. Very good. It's, so talking about promotion again. Are there other I mean, you you covered this in a way as far as social media and, blogs, but are there other ways to promote your book? Are there better ways to promote your book?
John Bond:I think what what the difference is is where your audience is. That's what the difference is. So if we're writing a book about leadership in the IT field, you're gonna wanna be on LinkedIn. And then being on, let's say, Instagram matters a little bit less. If your book is about civil war reenactors, which I'm gonna classify I'm not, but I'm gonna classify as being some older men on the East Coast, what we what do they follow, or what do they read that's of interest to them?
John Bond:I'm sure there's a civil war reenactors podcast that you'd wanna check out. I'm sure there's a magazine or newsletter that you'd wanna check out. And if you're, writing a young adult romance, I'm sure there's a book TikTok about it, and I'm sure there's an Instagram there are Instagram accounts about it. So you're gonna wanna find out where your audience is and concentrate on that. Going back to your question, I think it was your question, Mary, that said, do you have to be the person in your audience, or can you write outside the audience?
John Bond:This is an exact example of, certainly, you can write outside, but you have to have a way to connect with them, Know them personally, have them read and give feedback on your book, and give them permission to say, oh, here's the way I find out about new books. Word-of-mouth, obviously, one. But then what's number two? I go to TikTok or I go to my social media account or I watch, I read the New York Times book review or whatever the case may be. So find out where your audience is.
John Bond:And if you're not sure, then connect with those people that are your target audience.
Cathy Worthington:And should I ever pay an editor to improve my manuscript?
John Bond:I've got welcome and unwelcome news here. So, I tell people this is not required, but I tell people, and I myself am a am a novel writer, and I didn't welcome this advice. But if you write a novel, what you should do is write your first three novels, get them in complete final form, and stick them in a drawer and never look at them again.
Merry Elkins:Oh. If you even finish them.
Cathy Worthington:That's gonna make people cry.
John Bond:I know. I know. Listen up. There's some good news here
Cathy Worthington:coming. Okay.
John Bond:Then when you write the fourth one, you've really mastered your craft. So you have understood a little bit more about how to make a great product. You could someday go back to those other novels and rewrite them or revisit them, but it's very tough to say, I'm gonna write my first novel, and I'm gonna go have it picked up by an agent and then published by Random House. It's like in your first year of tennis saying you're gonna win the US Open. So I'm I'm just being honest.
John Bond:However, if you are a student of the written word and you have been a voracious reader all your life, if you're willing to join a writer's group, a local in person's writer's group, I'm a member of two, and I highly recommend it. If you're willing to give your work to people for them to give you honest feedback on, and if you're willing to really accept their their their comments and really revise it as opposed to dismiss it, then you may not have to do the three novels in the drawer idea. When you go to an editor, you the thing you're gonna wanna know most is what qualifications they have and what you expect them to do and what they expect to get back to you. Some of them will be very granular related. They're gonna wanna tell you about that versus which and, you know, these different parts of grammar that are very important.
John Bond:But nobody's ever said, man, that was a terrible story. I didn't connect with the characters. But, man, it was grammatically correct.
Cathy Worthington:So people people
John Bond:really care about the story part, and I don't wanna discount the the the grammar part. So you're gonna wanna know, is your editor just an advanced person that's giving grammar advice, or are they really giving story and structure advice? If you're gonna pay somebody, first of all, it'd probably be a fair sum of money. I would ask them for references from other authors they've done similar work for. Contact those authors and ask how happy they are with them and ask how much rewriting they did.
John Bond:So if you're not gonna do the three novels and the thing and be very and be very depressed and turn this podcast off, which I don't want people to, then what you're gonna wanna do is do a lot of writing, do a lot of reading, and be open to feedback and criticism and be willing to revise.
Merry Elkins:That's great. Great. Yeah. So, John, what would you like our boomer audience and other listeners to have as a takeaway today?
John Bond:Everybody about twenty years ago, there was a big survey where they surveyed people and said, do you have a book in you? 81% of all adults said they had a book in them. This is not an uncommon response, and I believe the older you are, the more likely you are to feel you have a book in you. Expressing oneself is a human need and a a human, it gives you great joy to do it. So whether it's in the form of writing notes to your grandchildren or writing your first novel or writing blog posts or whatever it is that you wanna do, it's a human thing for you to do.
John Bond:It could be literally writing. It could be typing on their computer. It could be recording YouTube videos, but expressing yourself has great value. Don't as don't be as concerned with nobody cares what I think, or I'm never gonna get published by Random House. I always say to people, if your great great grandmother had written several short stories and several essays about her life, just think of the tremendous value you would put in those documents.
John Bond:And for you to then say, nobody cares about what I think or nobody's interested in in it or I'm not a gifted writer, those same efforts, however small or large, will be greatly appreciated by the people that know you now as well as in the future, and I think it's gonna bring you great joy.
Merry Elkins:Oh, I
Cathy Worthington:love that.
Merry Elkins:That gives me chills. That was just beautiful. Thank you.
John Bond:Thank you.
Merry Elkins:Thank you so much, John. Our guest today on Late Boomers has been author and publishing consultant John Bond. You can find out more about him and what he offers at publishing at website publishingfundamentals.com. Thank you so much. That was so valuable.
Cathy Worthington:And thank you for listening to our thanks for listening to our late boomers podcast and subscribing to our late boomers podcast channel on YouTube. Listen in next week when we will have another inspiring guest for you. You can listen on any podcast platform, and we do appreciate you. Please follow us on Instagram at I am Kathy Worthington and at I am Mary Alkins and at late boomers. And thanks again to John Bond.
John Bond:It was a pleasure meeting both of you. This was a real joy, and I and I look forward to future conversations.
Merry Elkins:Great. Way.
Cathy Worthington:Thank you for joining us on Late Boomers, the podcast that is your guide to creating a third act with style, power, and impact. Please visit our website and get in touch with us at late boomers dot biz. If you would like to listen to or download other episodes of late boomers, go to ewnpodcastnetwork.com.
Merry Elkins:This podcast is also available on Spotify, Apple Podcast, and most other major podcast sites. We hope you make use of the wisdom you've gained here and that you enjoy a successful third act with your own style, power, and impact.
